In an apparent panicky effort to limit the ongoing mass exodus of conservative church members, many United Methodist bishops and other liberal leaders have been suggesting that the UMC is solidly, trustworthily committed to orthodox, biblical doctrine in having a high view of Jesus Christ, and that any suggestion to the contrary or reports of significant false teaching among United Methodists is “misinformation.”
But it is disingenuous for anyone to tell conservative church members that the UMC is actually, honestly committed to a traditional biblical sexual ethic by citing how the official United Methodist Book of Discipline officially bans gay weddings and non-celibate gay clergy, if such reassurances disregard the de facto realities of how widely these rules are now disregarded in the UMC.
It is similarly disingenuous for anyone to claim that the UMC is truly, honestly committed to historic, biblical doctrine about Jesus Christ by citing the Discipline’s on-paper Doctrinal Standards while disregarding the de facto realities of how widely these orthodox doctrines are now disregarded in the UMC.
In both cases, most active United Methodist bishops and a great many (if not most) district superintendents have been complicit, at best, in bringing about these de facto realities of the UMC’s on-paper moral and doctrinal standards becoming increasingly meaningless.
It is of concern to the whole denomination when many of those among the fractionally tiny minority of United Methodists who are set apart for spiritual leadership—especially those elevated to the highest positions of teaching and having authority over others—use the prominence and offices with which the UMC has entrusted them (lavishly paid for from apportionments taken from United Methodist offering plates) to publicly repudiate very basic, foundational Christian doctrine about the authority of Scripture or the eternal divinity, sinless perfection, or miraculous resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It is much more of a problem when no bishop or other United Methodist leader outside of IRD/UMAction and allied renewal groups shows the courage and conviction to challenge the spread of such false teachings in the UMC.
Aside from sexuality issues, it would be impossible to compile a completely comprehensive list of all recent instances of United Methodist leaders publicly denying the authority of Scripture or basic Christian doctrine about who Jesus Christ is. But here is an all-in-one-place documentation of such false teachings being promoted by top United Methodist officials—bishops, denomination-wide agencies, and seminaries—as well as how widespread acceptance of such false teachings have become among United Methodist clergy and laity alike.
- False teachings by United Methodist bishops
- False teachings from United Methodist agencies
- False teachings in United Methodist seminaries
- Widespread unbiblical beliefs among United Methodist clergy and laity
1. False teachings by United Methodist bishops
Lately, a common liberal rhetorical tactic has been to dismissively characterize any false teaching from United Methodist leaders—no matter how prominent or extreme—as somehow of no concern to the rest of the denomination. Such nothing-to-see-here rhetoric sometimes even suggests it is somehow unfair to think of such unorthodox United Methodist leaders as associated with the UMC.
But this is simply dishonest when we are talking about any individual the denomination has elevated above 99.999 percent of other United Methodists to be a bishop (or for that matter, an institution the denomination has established and continues to fund, such as a general agency that publicly represents the denomination or a seminary that trains new pastors). In the UMC, bishops enjoy an incredible amount of concentrated power, prominence, and teaching influence.
And we are not just talking about one bishop:
- In 2003, Chicago Bishop Joseph Sprague was acquitted of a heresy complaint that was filed over his repudiating such basic Christian doctrines as the physical resurrection of Christ and the accuracy of John’s gospel (see here and here). In 2019, the bishop who oversaw Sprague’s slap-on-the-wrist acquittal, Bruce Ough, was promoted to Executive Secretary of the UMC’s global Council of Bishops.
- At the 2016 North Central Jurisdictional Conference, Wisconsin Bishop Hee-Soo Jung preached, “Nothing in the [Great] Commission is about what we should teach others to believe about Jesus. Nothing! Nothing about believing in Jesus—no such thing!” He oddly contrasted this with simply “following Jesus,” by loving God and other people (watch at the 34:22 mark). As if it makes sense to divorce “making disciples” of Jesus Christ from teaching people to believe in Him or believe basic truths about Him being Savior and Lord. Several other bishops were present at this conference.
- Also in 2016, most attention on the Western Jurisdiction electing Dr. Karen Oliveto as bishop centered on how her being an openly partnered lesbian defied the Discipline’s prohibitions of non-celibate gay clergy. But several years earlier, Oliveto had gained notoriety from her 2005 public teachings at a Reconciling Ministries Network conference repudiating some of Jesus Christ’s own red-letter teachings, urging addressing both “the benefits and flaws” of Scripture, and most bizarrely, defending the alleged benefits of being possessed by a demon! When such heresies are no barrier to someone being elected bishop, that says a lot about the doctrinal state of the denomination.
- In 2017, now-Bishop Oliveto used her office to publicly deny the sinlessness of Jesus Christ, also effectively denying His full divinity. In reflecting on Christ’s encounter with a Syrophoenician woman, Oliveto actually taught that Jesus was guilty of such sins as “his bigotries and prejudices,” that he needed to experience “conversion,” and that we should not “create an idol out of him.” In doing so, she ignored (and was perhaps unaware of) how the UMC’s supposedly meaningful Doctrinal Standards teach the traditional view that Jesus was testing the woman’s faith. She never faced accountability for this teaching. Instead, she was subsequently promoted to become the Western Jurisdiction College of Bishops president. Bishops Bob Hoshibata (who had this role before Oliveto) and Ken Carter (who was then president of the global UMC Council of Bishops) were among the denominational officials who chose to refuse to hold Oliveto accountable for this false teaching when a formal complaint was filed—not to mention how the entire global Council of Bishops as a whole, under Carter’s leadership, reportedly failed to follow the United Methodist Discipline’s requirements for holding Oliveto accountable.
- In 2019, Greater Northwest Conference Area Bishop Elaine Stanovsky taught that “you can find almost any message” in the Bible, portraying Scripture like a cafeteria in which we selectively pick and choose what we accept or ignore, rather than letting the whole of Scripture change our minds. As she put it, “When it comes to the Bible, people make choices about how they listen to what they find there; which stories they let shape and inform their lives, and which they let fade into the background of timebound inscrutability.” So according to this bishop, “The challenge for people like you and me is to find the Good News in the Bible. When we find that, we can let the rest recede into the background—at least for the moment.”
- In 2019, the aforementioned Bishop Jung taught that, “By the leading of God’s Holy Spirit, we come to know some things allowed in scripture are no longer appropriate and valid, and that some condemnations and rules need grace-filled and loving updating.”
- In 2022, the aforementioned Bishop Carter, then leading the Florida and Western North Carolina Conferences, similarly declared “while I believe in our traditional, orthodox faith that’s rooted in the Scriptures, I also have always believed that we have to adapt our doctrine and our Scriptures to changing life circumstances that people have.” By what authority do these bishops believe they can actually change teachings from the Bible?
- In November 2022, the North Central Jurisdiction overwhelmingly elected as bishop Kennetha Bigham-Tsai, even though it had been shared and publicized how she had recently told many delegates that she believes that in the UMC, “it is not important that we agree on who Christ is.” In that same interview, she had also appeared to reject or misunderstand basic Christian doctrine about Christ’s incarnation, His becoming flesh in a very particular human context. She claimed: “God became flesh, but not particular flesh. There’s no particularity around that. God became incarnate in a culture, but not one culture.” Back when she visited the Indiana delegation as a bishop candidate in 2016, delegate Jim Ottjes mentioned Sprague’s rejection of Christ’s resurrection, and asked Bigham-Tsai about her own relevant beliefs. Two delegates who were present, Ottjes and myself, testify that her response was very evasive, avoiding a clear, direct answer.
- That same month, the Western Jurisdiction elected as bishop Dottie Escobedo-Frank, who actually “calls for heretics and edge-dwellers to lead the church forward.”
At least Bishops Timothy Whitaker and Marion Edwards publicly challenged Sprague’s false teachings and defended orthodox faith. Meanwhile, two other Southeastern Bishops, J. Lawrence McCleskey (see here and here) and Charlene Kammerer, defended Sprague.
Whitaker and Edwards have long since retired. We have not seen a single remaining active United Methodist bishop show the courage and conviction to similarly challenge any of the other out-there teachings listed above.
In recent years, what we have seen was a small number of orthodox bishops who saw the big picture from all of the unfaithfulness noted above, recognized that impossibility of continued church unity with such fundamental religious differences, and so , at different times, faithfully joined the mass exodus of orthodox believers from the UMC.
What about the active bishops who appear committed to perpetually remaining United Methodist?
Their universal refusal to follow Whitaker and Edwards’s examples by publicly challenging the spread of these recent false teachings of their colleagues raises the question of why? For some bishops, their silence perhaps results from them at least partially agreeing with with such extreme false teachings, but simply not having as much courage as their more outspokenly radical colleagues to clearly declare their true beliefs. Others perhaps perceive that these unorthodox beliefs are shared by too many United Methodists for these other bishops to have the courage to risk offending. Neither rationale inspires much trust in the UMC’s current leadership.
But central to the official job description of United Methodist bishops is “to guard the faith, order, liturgy, doctrine, and discipline of the church” (Discipline ¶403.1). It does not say “unless you face opposition from fellow bishops.” Guarding the church’s faith and doctrine, along with other teaching, is a necessarily public responsibility.
Apparently, most remaining active United Methodist bishops are happy to continue taking lavish salaries from United Methodist offering plates, but without actually doing their jobs of guarding the church’s faith and doctrine.
Several years ago, even a bishop known as somewhat more theologically traditionalist among United Methodist leaders (a very relative standard) pointedly told me, in light of Sprague’s false teachings, that whatever he and other bishops did or did not do to hold each other doctrinally accountable was “none of your business!” I refrained from asking if the apportionments demanded from my congregation to subsidize this bishop’s salary were also “none of my business.”
Despite having been present at the same 2005 conference where Oliveto issued her bizarre anti-Scripture, pro-demon teaching, Bishop Sally Dyck (now the UMC’s Ecumenical Officer) went out of her way to praise Oliveto as just the sort of bishop the UMC needs. Bishop Sue Haupert-Johnson (then of North Georgia, now of Virginia), a leader of the liberal UMC Next caucus, similarly publicly declared, “ Karen Oliveto is one of the finest bishops I’ve ever seen, even after Oliveto’s 2017 teaching about Jesus Christ’s “bigotries.”
Other bishops who have shown solidarity with Oliveto after her 2017 teaching, by speaking for events of the liberal UMARC caucus (whose #1 commitment is “unwavering support” of Oliveto as bishop) include Council of Bishops President Thomas Bickerton of New York, Julius Trimble of Indiana (who was a featured speaker for this group twice), Latrelle Easterling of Baltimore-Washington (who late last year became president of the Northeastern Jurisdiction College of Bishops) Rodolfo “Rudy” Juan, (who was president of the Philippines Central Conference College of Bishops) Harald Rückert of Germany, Cynthia Moore-Koikoi of Western Pennsylvania, new Bishop Kennetha Bigham-Tsai (before she was elected), and all three new Western Jurisdiction bishops.
When we are talking about half of those elected by the other United Methodist bishops around the world to be their officers, the presidents of multiple regional colleges of bishops, and every fully active bishop in one jurisdiction, in additional to the complicity of the UMC’s entire Council of Bishops as a whole, this is a far bigger problem than a couple of unrepresentative outliers.
The liberalized post-separation United Methodist Church is inheriting all of the active bishops named above. The Global Methodist Church does not have and will not have bishops who spread such false teachings.
2. False teachings from United Methodist agencies
The costly apportionment payments annually demanded from congregations who choose to remain United Methodist fund numerous “general church” agencies. Some of their activities have included:
- In 2002, Bishop Joseph Sprague’s above-noted false teachings views were published in his book, Affirmations of a Dissenter, published by Abingdon Press, which is an imprint of the United Methodist Publishing House. Apparently, this official United Methodist agency is fine publishing books that spread disbelief in doctrines of the UMC’s own nominal doctrinal Standards, as long as this earns royalties. (Unusually, this is an official agency not directly funded by apportionments.)
- From 2000 to 2013, the CEO of the UMC’s D.C. political lobby office, the General Board of Church and Society (GBCS) was Jim Winkler. In that role, Winkler publicly taught that the UMC’s supposedly core Doctrinal Standards were no more authoritative than any obscure sentence in the Discipline or even than any little-noticed and non-binding political statement in the UMC Book of Resolutions. Rev. Rob Renfroe informs me that when he was a GBCS board member, Winkler delivered a talk to directors in which Winkler said that he did not know if Jesus believed he was the Messiah.
- In 2021, United Methodist Communications promoted an online “Doubters’ Parish” ministry, which promotes a liberalized Christianity stripped of such basics as “faith in a God of supernatural intervention.”
- In 2022, the new CEO of the UMC’s General Commission on Religion and Race used his installation to apparently echo Oliveto’s misinterpreting Jesus Christ’s encounter with the Syrophoenician woman to suggest that the Lord was previously lacking in compassion.
3. False teachings in United Methodist seminaries
It would take a whole separate article to outline key ways in which apportionment-funded United Methodist seminaries actively undermine belief in biblical, historic Christian faith, while also taking an anti-evangelistic approach of intentionally promoting alternatives to following Jesus. Matt Jameson has written such an article, with extensive documentation. Note especially Jameson’s reporting on a former president of one United Methodist seminary declaring that Christians who wish to evangelize adherents of non-Christian religions have “an incorrect perception of what it means to follow Jesus” and a longtime president of two United Methodist seminaries going out of his way to defend both Bishop Sprague’s denial of Christ’s resurrection and Bishop Oliveto’s denial of Christ’s sinlessness.
Notably, in her Reconciling Ministries Network teachings that critiqued Jesus Christ’s own words, spoke of the alleged “flaws” of Scripture, and bizarrely defended the benefits of demon possession, Oliveto explained that her teachings were a combination of her own views and what the Rev. Dr. Jeffrey Kuan would have taught. Kuan ended up being unable to attend that 2005 event. In 2011, Professor Kuan became the dean of one United Methodist seminary (Drew), and then in 2013 president of another United Methodist seminary (Claremont). He also serves on the University Senate, a relatively small group charged with oversight of all United Methodist seminaries, colleges, and universities.
4. Widespread unbiblical beliefs among United Methodist clergy and laity
With such false teachings openly promoted at the highest levels of denominational leadership and with many generations of United Methodist clergy trained in such liberalized seminaries, such false teachings have inevitably trickled down.
We have previously reported on how the leader of the supposedly “centrist” Mainstream UMC caucus group wrote of only “metaphorically” believing in Christ’s resurrection, while another liberal caucus, the Reconciling Ministries Network, has promoted the view that we should not “seek to redeem all scriptural text” but instead “just rip out and leave those biblical pages” we find too challenging to accept.
Rev. Adam Hamilton, the UMC’s most prominent megachurch pastor, apparently speaks for many United Methodists when he teaches that there is a “bucket” of biblical passages—including but not limited to some disapprovals of homosexual practice—“that never fully expressed the heart, character or will of God.”
There are far too many other examples of extreme false teachings from individual United Methodist ministers (those set apart to teach the faith) to list here.
But there is also some statistical data on how widespread departures from core orthodoxy have become in the denomination over the years.
In the year before their 1968 merger, the Methodist Church had nearly 14 times as many members as the much-smaller Evangelical United Brethren Church. So the UMC’s history before 1968 is primarily that of what was generically named the Methodist Church.
As noted, mainline American Methodist seminaries had been taken over by theological liberalism decades before the merger. That influence on American Methodist clergy was seen in a large-scale 1965 survey by sociologist Jeffrey K. Hadden. As shared by IRD President Mark Tooley, the survey found that only minorities of the denomination’s surveyed clergy believed in the miracles of the virginal conception/birth or physical resurrection, only 52 percent believed “in a divine judgment after death where some shall be rewarded and others punished,” and only 38 percent believed “in the demonic as a personal power in the world.”
To be fair, subsequent decades brought new, orthodox influences among United Methodist clergy. But generations of so many clergy rejecting orthodox doctrine as they preached in United Methodist pulpits and mentored new United Methodist clergy also left their mark.
More recently, in 2018, United Methodist Communications conducted its own major scientific survey of lay people who regularly attend and/or were members of American United Methodist congregations. The results were released in early 2019.
Among other things, the survey found 38 percent of respondents believing, like Bishop Oliveto, that “Jesus committed sins like other people,” and only 29 percent identifying Scripture as “the most authoritative source of their personal theology.”
Since that survey, about 21 percent of American United Methodist congregations have disaffiliated from the denomination (using 2020 statistics as a baseline). Many more entire congregations are expected to disaffiliate in special sessions held later in the year. These departures of entire congregations do not count the many theologically traditionalist United Methodist individuals who are “voting with their feet” and leaving the UMC without the rest of their local churches. It would be a conservative estimate to expect American United Methodism to have lost 25 percent of its membership by the end of this year.
If the UMCom survey painted an accurate picture of American United Methodist laity and if almost all of those departing are theologically orthodox on such questions, then we can expect that among laity left in the UMC, roughly half or more will believe that “Jesus committed sins like other people” and less than ten percent will view the Bible as “the most authoritative source of their personal theology.”
To borrow a line from a friend, with all of this documentation of false teachings among United Methodists, how much smoke does there have to be before we recognize that the United Methodist Church has a pretty significant fire on its hands?
In contrast, leaders of the Global Methodist Church are actually committed to such basic Christian doctrines as the authority of Scripture as well as the particular incarnation, perfect sinlessness, miraculous resurrection of Jesus Christ. They also believe that there are such things as heresies or false teachings that should not be taught by Global Methodist ministers, and expect their congregations to actually teach the denomination’s core of biblically based doctrine.
As congregations and individuals choose between the two denominations emerging from the split, they should make sure others in their congregation are also informed about these differences and discern which approach to doctrine they believe is more faithful for them.
Comment by James Culberson on June 30, 2023 at 8:07 pm
Seems to me like those folks who come on Sunday, sit in the pew with hands folded, and fill collection plates–then–go have lunch somewhere, go on to their homes, give no thought about the church until they walk in “next” Sunday could care less about what is happening to the umc. Those folks gather as a social thing and don’t care to learn or be educated into what is going on in the umc. They are just the kind of members the lib/prog hierarchy in the umc want.
Rev. Lomperis speaks in strong support of the global methodist church. If he is correct, the hierarchy in that organization will have to listen to Father/Son/Holy Spirit, listen to laity, walk humbly with their Savior. For some of those in high office in the gmc, that may be a bitter pill to swallow.
As for this writer, my name has been removed for the annals of the umc and this writer attends a small nondenomisational fellowship that is led by a fine pastor and elders.
Comment by Tim McGonagle on July 1, 2023 at 9:00 am
“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.
The leadership (Bishops, seminaries, Pastors) of the UMC for years has been taking a step backyard on to unstable ground (house built on sand) and to allow these false teachings to get a foothold in the church. Instead of standing on the solid rock of Biblical teaching.
Comment by John on July 1, 2023 at 3:01 pm
You accuse UMCOM of not upholding the Discipline because it ran a NEWS story on an online church of a doubting pastor. UM News is the denomination’s news division and reports on churches and ministries of all types of theological persuasions without endorsing them. You certainly haven’t accused of them of “promoting” conservative stances on sexuality and church polity even though they have run commentaries from supporters of both positions. A church’s news divisions shouldn’t take sides, but should report fairly and accurately what both sides are doing. I suppose if the GMC creates any type of news division it will follow the example of FOX News in just pretending these divisions don’t exist at all.
Comment by Reverend Wade Compton on July 1, 2023 at 7:23 pm
Dear Brother John,
If you had been here and providing this type of leadership, honesty and documentation back in the’70s ’80s and ’90s when this all should have been settled and the heretics driven out of God’s Church we would be in a much different reality today. Thank you for your incredible courage and honesty. If one only read this article and confirmed it’s documentation one would know why lovers of darkness fight you with everything they have. Don’t let the bas—‐s get you down.
Comment by John Lomperis on July 2, 2023 at 12:01 am
The previous comment further highlights the depth of the divide within the UMC. When members of the denomination’s liberal faction see no problem with:
-out of all of the ministries of tens of thousands of United Methodist clergy they could have highlighted, they chose to direct their limited attention and limited resources to single this one out for a promotional “puff” piece;
-the official, apportionment-funded communications agency of the denomination wavering in a lukewarm “neutrality” between minimal orthodoxy and extreme heresy, rather than unapologetically, consistently defending and teaching the denomination’s doctrinal and moral standards (and responding to their detractors)
the divide is wide indeed.
Comment by John on July 2, 2023 at 11:20 am
The divide is wide, but my understanding of UM News’ duties is in keeping with the Book of Discipline, whereas yours is not. The BOD affirms the importance of traditional journalistic integrity and freedom of the press in UMCOM’s mission. You seem to be under the assumption that the reporters serving UM News have to decide between being good journalists or faithful Methodists. I pity any Christian who is presented with such a false choice. Clearly we have very different perspectives on the role of the Fourth Estate in a free society.
“It [UMCOM] shall be the official newsgathering and distributing agency for The United Methodist Church and its general agencies. In discharging its responsibilities, in keeping with the historic freedom of the press, it shall operate with editorial freedom as an independent news bureau serving all segments of church life and society, making available to both religious and public news media information concerning the Church at large.” United Methodist Book of Discipline Par. 1806.1
Comment by Palamas on July 2, 2023 at 4:28 pm
John, if that’s the best you can come up with to dispute John Lomperis’ indictment of the UMC, you might as well throw in the towel and acknowledge what has become overwhelmingly obvious: the UMC is no longer a Christian organization.
Comment by Gary Bebop on July 2, 2023 at 7:00 pm
Okay, I like this exchange. It reveals that John Lomperis is not afraid of a public duel on facts in play. But what of UMNews? I’d like to know if UMNews would argue that it has reported fairly (and in warranted amounts) on the conflict that has reached a crescendo in the United Methodist Church. While Good News, the Confessing Movement, IRD, and (more recently) WCA have been saying “the church is a divided house,” what was UMNews telling us?
Comment by John on July 2, 2023 at 10:02 pm
Gary,
Visit UM News’ website. You will see that they have no shortage of articles, commentaries, and other pieces on disaffiliations. Another you will see on their site that you will never see here, Good News, or the GMC page is opinions from both sides. I would pay money to see the IRD just once allow an acknowledged liberal or centrist voice post an article on their site no strings attached.
Comment by John on July 2, 2023 at 10:14 pm
Palamas,
Lomperis posted a news article (which he neglected to identify as such) from two years ago to accuse UMCOM of endorsing false doctrine, even though the article itself endorses nothing. One article in thousands doesn’t constitute a pattern of behavior. The fact that a known provocateur such as John Lomperis could only find one piece on a UMCOM-sponsored page that upset him and had to misrepresent its nature (which he hides by linking back to his own website rather than the original source) I think shows he’s desperate.
Comment by Gary Bebop on July 3, 2023 at 1:19 am
Navigating around UMNews, I don’t see much support for the argument that UMNews has acknowledged an institutional calamity unfolding. In fact, “disaffiliations” is not listed as a topic. Let’s grant the agency has finally acknowledged the phenomenon but seems dumbfounded as to why this is happening. “What’s that smell?” That suggests a deficit of perspicuity, candor, and (simply) a good nose.
Comment by John on July 3, 2023 at 10:05 am
Gary,
Look again. https://www.umnews.org/en/tag/disaffiliation
Comment by Gary Bebop on July 3, 2023 at 1:37 pm
What the link reveals is a point-of-view which crudely suggests that “what largely had been a debate among denominational leaders has seeped into local congregations as well as false accusations that The United Methodist Church is abandoning core Christian doctrines.” UMNews seems not to recognize what’s going on as a (potential) historic turning point and reset for Methodism. The Big Story eludes its comprehension. The agency has failed to read the signs.
Comment by Palamas on July 3, 2023 at 8:29 pm
Whatever, John. You’re focusing on a candle dripping on a tablecloth while the house is on fire in every room. If this is what you think is important, I’m sure you love the vaguely spiritual political action committee the UMC has become.
Comment by JoeR on July 3, 2023 at 8:34 pm
This article will no doubt be classified by the UMC as mis-Information. Given truth is rarely part of UMC publications articles such as these are one of the few ways in which to find out what is going on.
The Book of Discipline has been ignored for decades. Weak to no leadership is the reason the UMC is the reason we are where we are today. I am embarrassed to be a member and look forward to our upcoming disaffiliation vote.
This is in spite of Bishop Sue’s decision to stop disaffiliations votes two days before she left North Georgia. Typical cheap shots taken by UMC leaders.
Comment by Carl Murphy on July 3, 2023 at 10:55 pm
I find it amazing that the liberal replies here do not attempt to refute what the bishops and others are quoted as saying. Why go to church if Jesus is not the Son of God who died for us that we might be joint heirs with him? I find it humorous that the liberals are quick to name us homophobes and haters while they themselves are Biblephopes and haters of anyone that disagrees with them. Face it, to the liberals it’s all about money, making churches pay a ransom for their own property to leave. I find it also amazing that the bucket is mentioned here. I was asked to speak at a SBC church and I quoted the bucket statement. I was terminated on January 15 2023 over the incident. Strange I made the statement in October. My church voted to leave by 80%. Those that lost spent 3 months trying to destroy the church and me as I conducted afternoon services for the congregation. On April 22nd our disaffiliation was approved and on June 2 I returned to the pulpit. We are now members of AIM and are very happy. Also our attendance as risen. Although we are a church of only 35 our offering for June was approximately 36,000 dollars, which is twice the ransom the church had to pay. God is good. I preach Jesus Christ as the only way to Heaven and that non believers will spend eternity in Hell. I believe every single word of the Bible is God breathed and true. As the old Pat Boone song says:” my religion is not old fashioned but it’s real genuine, two and two make four today as it did in our Lord’s time…”. I suggest liberals actually read the Bible, at least the 8 books at the end of the New Testament and pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit. I pray that God have mercy on their souls.
Comment by John on July 3, 2023 at 11:55 pm
Gary,
Let me just ask one final question. If UM News is so in the dark on what is really happening across the denomination as you suggest, why is the IRD, Good News, and even the GMC website pulling from and/or referencing their articles so much in their own publications around disaffiliation? It would seem that for all the huff and bluster about how fallen The UMC is on this page and how biased the agencies are, the schismatics are still relying heavily on the unionists to get their news.
Comment by Mikeb on July 4, 2023 at 12:51 am
I find it amazing how they treated this like a corporate takeover. UMC was just a large corporation where they set enough insiders and created a hostile takeover.
The other thing that I find amazing is how far from Scripture they are willing to push. Why would people who see demonic possession, or gay marriage or blasphemy as positive options even be interested in being in any church unless they saw it as a slush fund to takeover.
Comment by Ted on July 4, 2023 at 3:33 am
Mikeb ……… your last statement says it all. The UMC doesn’t want our opinions, just our money.
Comment by David Gingrich on July 4, 2023 at 7:10 am
Wonderful article. I wish every UMC member could read it.
Comment by George on July 4, 2023 at 12:11 pm
There you have it in a nutshell. Names, dates, and places. But there are those claiming foul.
That all of this is blown out of proportion and that the dissenters are just ignorant rabble rousers. I believe in truth and that truth will indeed set us free. What if there had been a UMC news paper that had allowed all of the bishops and district superintendents across the church to write editorials about what was going on over the past 30 years? To say and expound on what was happening church wide and not just in their local domain. Things would never have gotten this far for sure. The Church leaders never wanted us to know and slowly but surely replaced its ranks with like minded liberal thinkers. The damage is done. The fight is over. All that’s left is finger pointing. Once a great denomination. How sad.
Comment by Gary Bebop on July 4, 2023 at 2:15 pm
The conversation has become attenuated here but may be worth the effort if the point can be made that UMNews seems unable or unwilling to draw a proper inference regarding the historical significance of the disaffiliation stories it publishes. Some of the smartest people are employed in clever circumlocutions.
Comment by John on July 4, 2023 at 3:39 pm
Gary,
It sounds like you just want UM News to reaffirm what is clearly you own deeply-held opinion on disaffiliation. What you’re articulating is called confirmation bias and its responsible for much of the polarization in news and media today. I have no doubt you’ll continue to pleased with what you find on this page and find fault with anything that tells you otherwise.
Comment by Gary Bebop on July 4, 2023 at 9:00 pm
I understand you would like to shake this stick out of the dog’s mouth, but if you’ll stay around for one more question: So do you think there’s “nothing happening” of any historical import happening (of which, disaffiliations are the “stormy petrels,” the harbingers)?
Comment by Gary Bebop on July 4, 2023 at 10:18 pm
Conservative voices have been saying “something’s happening” (Barney Fife would say, “Big, really big”), but liberal hierophants, their varlets and apologists, seem transfixed by brand loyalty while blessing an appetite and bias for Disciplinary divagation. Now that something big, really big, is happening, these persuaders of the liberal sect are pretending “nothing’s changing” while behaving like golden pheasants about to lose their nests.
Comment by Bishop Elaine Stanovsky on July 5, 2023 at 12:47 pm
John, can you provide readers with a link to the source of your brief quotes that you attribute to me, so they can see how they fit into the message? I gave episcopal addresses in 3 annual conferences in 2019, and can’t find your quote in any of my written scripts. Maybe you lifted them from a recording, rather than the written. I’m not challenging your accuracy in reporting, just asking for transparency. Thank you.
Comment by John on July 5, 2023 at 5:56 pm
Here is my answer to your question. Never in all my comments on here have tried to minimize what is happening right now. I would never do that, because what is happening has affected me personally. Churches I attended in my younger days have left, pastors I knew well have left, and even members of my own family have joined The GMC, while I have not and could not in good conscience. I’ve seen churches torn apart and relationships destroyed. I see both the Lomperis’ on the right gleefully kicking the dust off their shoes right now as well as some of the extreme folks on the left shouting “good riddance!” and both fill me with disgust. I always knew when the split happened it would not be quiet or amicable, despite the promises of leaders on both sides and hold both responsible for the bitterness and hurt both sides are feeling now. There was always going to be people who got hurt, people who felt betrayed, and people who felt left behind on both sides. I have no doubt you earnestly believe The UMC to be hopelessly fallen and think everyone with an ounce of belief should get out from under it right now. As for me, I can only say it has been my spiritual home my entire life, I have been blessed by the guidance and love of many people under its banner (some of whom have now joined The GMC), and it has been there for me through the good and bad. I will not leave it. For you and those others who seek a new beginning in The GMC, I wish you well…I truly do. I hope if we cannot all be together under one roof, we can least still find the grace of God at work in all of us and be good neighbors according to Christ’s command. May the Lord bless you and keep you!
Comment by John on July 5, 2023 at 6:11 pm
The other day I saw two articles. One from The UMC and one from The GMC. Both were about church planting in response to disaffiliation. The UMC was about new churches and lighthouse congregations being started to serve those whose church voted to leave the denomination, but who wanted to remain in The UMC themselves, so they left. The other was written from the other perspective obviously. People who voted to disaffiliate in churches that ultimately voted to stay and now no longer felt at home there. Both articles quoted from people in those situations directly who expressed similar feelings of loss, but hope in starting something new. And all I could think about is in spite of everything we’re still more alike than we think. For one we both still have this engrained instinct to look for the people who are hurting in any situation and attend to them first. I’d like to think it’s an inherent characteristic of all Methodists and Wesleyans going back to the very days of Wesley himself. I hope none of us ever loses it.
Comment by Chris Dinnan on July 6, 2023 at 1:47 pm
I read with interest both the article and comments. I was born and raised a Catholic but was not a church-goer at all from when I was 18 to 24 years old. I then had a “born again“ experience and felt at that time that I would practice my newfound committed Christian faith anywhere but in the Catholic Church. It did not work out that way. I was a practicing Catholic for 45 years but left to become a United Methodist about two years ago. My reason for leaving was dominated by the Catholic Church’s teaching on LBGTQ people. The marriage of such people in the church could definitely not be considered, and their marriages could not even be blessed, because “they are living in sin.” The Nicene Creed? OK, that is an extremely valuable and meaningful expression of faith from the fourth century A.D. I don’t necessarily have to buy every word as gospel. Beyond that, the dogma and doctrines of the Catholic Church were not necessarily aligned with my own personal beliefs. As for abortion, I believe it to be a terrible form of birth control, but I definitely support the right of a woman to choose. All that said, I am most guided by the biblical admonition that “God is love.“ (1 John: 8) Love itself is the way, the truth and the life. Do we really condemn in our hearts and minds all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., and all non-practicing people of faith to eternal damnation in the fires of hell? I certainly do not, as my God is a God of mercy, love and compassion. I think it’s extremely important for all of us to admit our ignorance but then submit to and become slaves of truth and justice. And, as Pontius Pilot asked Jesus prior to condemning him to death by crucifixion, “What is truth?” I only expect an answer to that question when I come face-to-face with my Lord and Savior at the time of my death. After all, as a deer longs for streams of running water, thus do I long to see the face of God.
Comment by Charles Whatley on July 14, 2023 at 4:12 pm
Is it a bit disingenuous to criticize the UMC while promoting the false idea that there are only two choices for UMC churches… to stay UMC or join the GMC?
There are actually 49 Methodist denominations and even more Methodist associations available. This one deceptive practice is the primary reason we didn’t join the GMC.
Comment by Jeff O. on August 28, 2023 at 5:17 pm
thought for sure the honorable (cough cough) John Schol would be mentioned