An earlier article reviewed the comments of Frank Turek, President of the apologetics ministry CrossExamine.org regarding the need to adhere to logic rather than feelings and rhetoric in engaging politics and society at the National Apologetics Conference of the Southern Evangelical Seminary in Rock Hill, S.C., on October 11-12. In a concluding address, Turek examined the why Christians ought to be actively involved in American politics as a matter of Christian discipleship.
Can we legislate morality? Turek asked. He said that all politics is an attempt to implement morality. Secondly, he asked “should Christians be involved in politics?” Finally, he asked, “what should Christians do when we don’t like” any available choice?
Legislating Morality
On the first question, he said that American governments legislate on “abortion, life, marriage, men and women’s sports, ‘transitioning’ children, parental rights, murder, theft, rape,” etc. These are all clearly moral issues. In fact, “all laws legislate morality.” The question is “whose morality?” Every law “declares one behavior to be right and the other behavior wrong.”
Any Christian motivation in politics will lead to a “separation of church and state” objection, Turek said. This is not in the Constitution, he said, but even if it were, legislation would still be about moral issues.
On the second question (Christian involvement in politics) Turek noted that Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, didn’t want “the government telling the church what to do,” but did favor religious influence on politics.
If the state cannot enact laws which agree with the Bible, there can be no laws against murder or theft. Christians impose not a morality to their liking, but the natural law written on the human heart, evident to all, enforced in civilized societies, and also expounded in Scripture.
Withdrawal from Politics
Turek presented the famous satellite photograph of the Korean Peninsula at night, in which one can easily discern South Korea’s boundaries with the sea and the frontier with North Korea. South Korea was ablaze with light, whereas North Korea was dark. The difference between the two states lies in politics. “The South has political freedom which the North does not.” Because politics is so consequential to life it is ridiculous to adopt a policy of “I just preach the gospel, I don’t get involved politically.” The very ability to preach the gospel is dependent, at least to some degree, on what the state allows. Nor will the law protect religious freedom if “the wrong judges get in place.”
The fact is that anti-Christian law and policy will come to you. Politics can affect “every area of life.” In particular, it can affect “your church, your family, your health, your money, your business, your freedom, your property, your school, your safety, the unborn, evangelism, your faith behavior,” and much more. Often in the American past, “pastors would preach overtly political sermons.” He noted that, according to the Bible (Rom. 13:4) “the main purpose of government is to protect people from evil.” We also need the state to protect liberty of conscience because “every area of your life requires you to follow Jesus and the apostles.”
In fact, the accomplishments of Christians in politics include ending “slavery, gladiatorial combat, death games, temple prostitution, kidnapped brides, wives as property, infanticide, child labor, child marriage, child sexual abuse, child prostitution, class distinction, and in some states abortion.” He observed that “Western civilization is built on Christian morality.” This includes the concept of individual rights. But these rights depend on our primary allegiance being to God.
Bad Alternatives in Politics
A final question Turek considered was “what should Christians do when we don’t like” political alternatives. One response is “no politician can be your savior.” This is true. “No spouse can be your savior either, but it’s still pretty important that you pick the right one.” Often pastors will say “I’m not being political here.” But “why not,” Turek asked. Many of the most important persons in the Bible were in fact political, he said. He noted like the Pharisees, many today favor regulating the details of life (such as incandescent light bulbs and plastic straws) but still favor murdering unborn children and the castration of minors. When we don’t like political alternatives, we pick the “least worst” alternative and prefer the right policies to personalities
Turek addressed the claim that “the church grows under persecution.” He said that “sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t.” If we want to protect the Christian community and “love our neighbors, we ought to fight against persecution.”
And so Christians should be involved in politics as a matter of discipleship, showing love of God and neighbor.
The Duty to Resist Evil
Finally, Turek referred to Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who said that the church in Germany preferred not to confront the evil policies of the Nazi regime. Christians must resist when they see evil perpetrated in the world, not merely when their own interests are directly affected. This was in contrast with the Oxford Movement, which proposed to convert Hitler in order to stop the evil. Bonhoeffer said to the contrary that “we are the ones to be converted, not Hitler.” Christian political involvement is needed in order to “live in a country more like South Korea than North Korea.”
Comment by Tim on October 25, 2024 at 4:44 pm
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. – Ephesians 4:25
I mostly liked the article until my side was accused of wanting to castrate children. It’s very hard to respect a Christian movement that bears false witness to make its points.
Comment by Salvatore Anthony Luiso on October 25, 2024 at 11:36 pm
Regarding “prefer the right policies to personalities”: What about the old slogan from the ’90s: “Character matters”? Is it not true? Character is *not* the same as personality. So what if the policies are good, but the character is bad?
Regarding “Christians must resist when they see evil perpetrated in the world, not merely when their own interests are directly affected”: If we must resist evil, we must not resist it with evil, i.e. resist one evil with another evil.
Consider that with respect to the notion of trying to prevent one evil candidate from being elected by voting for another evil candidate.
Someone will say “All candidates are evil: some more, and some less”. In absolute terms, I agree–but not in relative terms. In relative terms, there are some candidates and politicians who are rightly called “good” and others who are rightly called “evil”.
We should have standards which can disqualify a candidate for our support. There are some candidates for whom we should not vote, regardless of the circumstance.
We should not repeat the mistake of Christians in the 1930s who thought God raised up a champion in Adolph Hitler to protect Christian civilization from the international communist movement.
We should also not ignore, excuse, rationalize, or condone with the purpose of stopping another. For example: we should not be silent about the Nazi so that he will protect us from the communist, and vice versa.
Lastly: Remember that Christian political involvement can go seriously awry, even with the best of intentions. It hasn’t always been a good thing.
Comment by Mike on October 26, 2024 at 9:08 am
“I mostly liked the article until my side was accused of wanting to castrate children.” What’s the matter, Tim? Does the truth hurt?
“It’s very hard to respect a Christian movement that bears false witness to make its points.” It’s very hard to respect a poster that tries to lie his way out of acknowledging the truth. What better way to describe what surgery on deluded children accomplishes?
Comment by Rev Robert Tanzie on October 26, 2024 at 10:02 am
I really find your reporting on church matters & how the Spirit is moving among us worldwide accurate and encouraging. But then all the sudden your team’s vision and balance goes out the window (ie gets all Trumpy) when politics enters into your reportage. It’s not a simple division of good God fearing Republicans vs Marxist lefty Democrats as you so often write. Get better reporting, please. ..I’m a retired evangelical missionary & a life long prolife Democrat.
Comment by Wilson R. on October 26, 2024 at 10:51 am
I agree with the premise that Christians should apply their moral principles to politics. Unlike the early believers who lived under an emperor, we have (for now) the freedom to vote our values.
But isn’t it interesting what this Turek fellow lists as “moral values?” They appear to extend only to abortion and human sexuality (and not even all dimensions of human sexuality–no suggestion, for example, that Christians shouldn’t support leaders who break the commandment against adultery).
Turek left a lot out.
In my book, access to healthcare is a moral value that affects how I vote.
Society’s treatment of the poor is a moral value.
The epidemic of gun violence, and policies that promote the proliferation of guns, is a moral issue.
Federal and state budgets are moral documents that reflect our values and priorities.
If abortion, gays, and trans are the chief items on Mr. Turek’s list of issues that Christians need to be concerned about, then his moral blind spot is big enough to steer an aircraft carrier through. I recall that Jesus had something to say about blind guides. This Turek fellow sounds like someone who could lead you into the ditch.
Comment by Tim on October 26, 2024 at 10:56 am
Lie is the correct word.
First off, the position of the left isn’t “go castrate kids.” It’s that medical decisions should be made by patients, parents, and doctors.
Secondly, calling gender affirming care castration is a lie. The Journal of the American Medical Association recently did a study on this. No surgery was performed on under 12s. The rate of surgery on 13-14 year olds is 0.1 per 100000 and on 15-17 year olds is 2.1 per 100000. 96 percent of that surgery was chest related and 97 percent of that was on non-transgender males to reduce breast size.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2820437#google_vignette
Given that Scripture condemns liars and says nothing about transgender folks, I’m pretty sure the left is on the right side of Scripture here.
Comment by Different Steve on October 26, 2024 at 12:32 pm
Over 5,700 American children had trans surgery between 2019 and 2023, medical group claims: ‘Treated like guinea pigs’
https://nypost.com/2024/10/08/us-news/over-5700-americans-under-18-had-trans-surgery-from-2019-23/
Comment by Tim on October 26, 2024 at 1:10 pm
The New York Post is a right wing tabloid that played with the numbers to support a predetermined conclusion. There’s no separation in your article about chest surgery and genital surgery. There’s also no recognition that a lot of that chest surgery is on non transgender boys with breasts who want them reduced.
It is very sad that the right wing has picked this particular group of vulnerable people to bully. It’s a lie that this prejudice has anything to do with Scripture.
Comment by Douglas E Ehrhardt on October 26, 2024 at 1:50 pm
One more time Tim, there is no such thing as transgender, no such thing as gay ,and definitely no such thing as liberal Christians. .This alphabet freak show stuff is nothing but evil. Stay away from kids.
Comment by Tim on October 26, 2024 at 2:25 pm
That’s funny Doug. There’s a place in the Bible maybe you’ve read where Jesus gives pretty explicit instructions on how to live (Matthew 25 35:36.) Right wing Christians have pretty much adopted every position AGAINST what Jesus said to do. But tell me more about how the left is the problem. We live in a world where Southern Baptist pastors are taken aback when they preach the Sermon on the Mount and they get congregants asking where all this leftie stuff came from
Comment by Different Steve on October 26, 2024 at 4:44 pm
No, Tim, the numbers are from the organization Do No Harm, not the New York Post, as the article clearly states. The organization got its data from reported insurance claims. Where did your source get its data, physicians self reporting or something? Like they’d be inclined to self report all the mutilations they do. At least some have been exposed as being performed on the down low at a major medical center. What do those percentages you quoted even mean in real numbers? There’s an old saying: one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. Another one: there’s lies, damn lies and statistics.
As for the New York Post: is it a nation’s oldest newspaper, broke and stood behind the Hunter Biden laptop story at great cost to itself, as the government and other newspapers lied about it, claimed it was Russian disinformation, and got the NY Post thrown off social media (Facebook, Twitter) in the weeks before the election, constituting major election interference. Based on that history, I consider the NY Post relatively reputable and even heroic compared to something like the long (maybe always) untrustworthy Washington Post.
Another saying: if you can’t attack the facts, attack the source. You can’t so you have.
Comment by Different Steve on October 26, 2024 at 4:58 pm
Castrati – SNL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmI1MSmHFA0&t=200s
Comment by Tim on October 26, 2024 at 9:25 pm
Steve my numbers are from the Journal of the American Medical Society Network Open. The authors are professors at the TH Chan School of Public Health at Harvard.
FYI the oldest newspaper in the country is the Hartford Courant, which has been publishing since 1764 (37 years before the NY Post.)
Comment by Tim Ware on October 26, 2024 at 9:54 pm
The phrase “gender affirming care” strikes me as so absolutely insane that it’s hard to believe people actually have been deceived into accepting that lunacy.
Where in the world is our society headed when this stuff is put out by people, and with a straight face?
But I guess we shouldn’t be surprised. After all, Jesus did say that Satan is the “prince (ruler) of this world.”
Comment by Different Steve on October 27, 2024 at 8:05 am
Tim I asked where they got their data, not who they were. You know what they say: garbage in, garbage out. Remember that there were doctors on cigarette commercials. Pharmacists pushing Prevagen (I tend to think it doesn’t work but you may find their commercials convincing). The told us the Covid vaccines would keep you from getting or transmitting Covid. They killed people by putting them on ventilators and Remesdivir (aka “Run – Death is Near”. You may say you trust everything “the science” proclaims, but you probably haven’t kept up with your Covid shots. So many people have decided that they’re done with those shots that Phizer is hurting financially. As for your newspaper research, you undoubtedly noticed it was started by Alexander Hamilton? So how about oldest paper in US started by a founding father?
Comment by Different Steve on October 27, 2024 at 10:18 am
More about the NY Post: its the 9th highest ranked news website in the US. (The Washington Post doesn’t appear in this top ten list)
https://ahrefs.com/top/united-states/news
Worldwide, the NY Post is #69 (the Washington Post is #82).
https://ahrefs.com/top/news
Comment by Tim on October 27, 2024 at 12:49 pm
Tim Ware
“Gender affirming care” is used because it’s a broad term for a variety of treatments, not all of them for transgender kids.
For example, as stated in the article I linked above, if a boy with a larger than average chest has a breast reduction to look more masculine, thats gender affirming care.
The basis of gender affirming care is counseling. As kids approach puberty, hormone treatments may happen. Rarely does the family of a minor elect surgery, but if it does its mostly in the chest area. Please remember that my objection to this article was the bold faced lie that the left is castrating children.
Different Steve, I gave you a link to the article, but you seem to only prefer to read conspiracy theories. The data came from insurance claims. Also known as how doctors get paid, so I think it’s pretty accurate.
Also, get your COVID shot. I don’t understand why I have to say a Christian should care about the health of the people around them, but here we are I guess.
Comment by Different Steve on October 27, 2024 at 5:01 pm
I notice your article, which dates back to June, has 23597 views, but zero citations. Nobody appears to have seen fit to cite this study in their own work, the usual sign of the merit of a scientific work. It’s data is limited to a relatively small subset of the national population from an outfit called Innovation Insights. Yes, based on insurance claims, but not nearly all of them, and I think it can be expected that different insurance providers will receive differing amounts of these claims depending in part upon coverage and policies. Once again, rather than address the merits of the new study, which is also based on insurance claims, you choose to call it a “conspiracy theory”. Being a new study, it’s a bit early to say how credible others in the field will find it, but so far, I’m unaware of any debunking. I also notice you chide me for my own vaccination status to evade the subject of your own.
Comment by Tim on October 27, 2024 at 10:22 pm
Just got my Pfizer shot along with my flu shot last week, thanks for asking. Actually was able to do it while picking up a prescription, so took almost no time.
So let’s take your numbers, which aren’t incompatible with the ones I found (they just don’t distinguish between types of surgery and who that surgery is for) and do a little analysis. Your study is over a 5 year period and claims that 5747 minors had surgery in that period. So that’s 1150 kids per year.
The current estimate (by Williams Institute at the School of Law at UCLA) is that 300,000 kids are openly transgender in the US. So your numbers suggest that 0.38% of trans kids have surgery in the US each year. In 2023 the US under 18 population was 73,602,753. The 1150 surgeries that year would be 0.00156% of total kids.
In short, your numbers confirm that surgery is very rare for gender affirming care of children.
Comment by David on October 28, 2024 at 8:30 am
As an older person, I often wonder where this trans business was when I was growing up. While there were classmates who eventually identified as gay, I do not recall anyone in school wanting to change their gender or wear hair styles and clothing of the opposite sex.
I am a liberal leftist but have long opposed surgery for gender transition, especially among those lacking adult judgment. Many young boys want to be firemen when they grow up but then decide on other occupations with greater maturity. People can change their minds.
One can easily live the lifestyle of the opposite gender without resorting to medical intervention. The long-term effects of hormone therapy are not so well known. Post-menopausal women on replacement hormone therapy can suffer medical consequences including increased risk of stroke and dementia. This must be balanced against bone fractures, etc. that might otherwise occur without the hormones.
Cases of ambiguous genitalia or intersex are more common than many suppose. These prevent the immediate gender identification of the newborn. In the past, corrective action was taken immediately. There is currently a movement among intersex persons to have laws passed prohibiting these actions until the affected person is an adult. They feel that early intervention has damaged their lives.
Comment by Wilson R on October 29, 2024 at 8:21 am
Nothing about concern for the poor here as a moral issue. Nothing about exploiting the disadvantaged. It’s all trans and gay here all the time. Those are the only “moral” issues that matter to the Christians here who “tithe dill and cumin while ignoring the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy.”
The young “nones” see right through you. That’s why they are staying away in droves.
Comment by Tim Ware on October 31, 2024 at 12:16 am
Wilson,
It was your side that made homosexuality the do or die issue for the past 30+ years, always agitating, always disrupting, making it the litmus test for everything, always keeping that issue front and center, the side that said, “We will either get our way, or we will destroy you.”
I well remember all of that.
And now you’ve won. But what did you win? Declinig, irrelevant organizations that are but a pitiful skeleton of their former selves and that, just in a few years, will fade into oblivion.
So don’t come in here accusing us of being preoccupied with gay stuff. It was your side that was preoccupied with it for over 30 years and shoved it into our faces constantly. Your side was the one who declared war. And although you won, your victory was certainly not sweet, because you won nothing but the opportunity to see the last few trickle out.
Comment by Colin Ross on November 3, 2024 at 3:33 pm
Ha frank turek is the least intellectually curious person I think I’ve ever heard. The sooner he and his kind die off the better American politics will be. That guy is a total loser
Comment by Rick Plasterer on November 5, 2024 at 5:22 pm
WilsonR,
Conservatives (and undeniably Christian conservatives among them) are compassionate. They give substantially to charity, as Arthur C. Brooks showed a number of years ago in “Who Really Cares” (2007). It was charity that Jesus commanded, not redistribution.
Do modern socialist states know better how wealth should be distributed? The twentieth and twenty-first centuries testify against it, most recently in Venezuela.
Rick