Methodism at Baptist Baylor University

Mark Tooley:

Hello! This is Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy. Here, in a very chilly but beautiful Washington DC. Interviewing, conversing with Jason Vickers, Professor of Christian Theology at Asbury Theological Seminary outside of Lexington, Kentucky. We’re going to talk, especially about his new appointment that will begin later next year at Baylor University, at Truett Theological Seminary, where Jason Vickers will be the, and let’s make sure I pronounce this and describe this accurately, the inaugural holder of the William J. Abraham, Chair of Wesleyan Studies. So, through it the seminary will become a place for Methodist seminarians to study. So, Jason Vickers, are you excited about your new role next year?

Jason Vickers:

Thank you, Mark It’s good to be with you again. And yes, very excited. I want to begin, if I may, just by indicating that I remain, an enthusiastic supporter of Asbury Theological Seminary, where I am now, and where I will teach through the end of the spring semester coming up, and as far as I’m concerned, Asbury and Truett, it is ultimately a part of the same team. We’re looking to promote Wesley and Christianity to the glory of God and for the life of the world, and I’ll say more about that here in a little bit. We’re in a situation. Now, Mark, as you know, in theological education, in the church, in ministry where we really do need all hands-on deck, we need as many people as possible.  So, as we can get as many institutions as we can get helping to advance the call of the Gospel, and to advance the Wesleyan form of Christianity that we know and love. So, just a quick word there about Asbury and my ongoing, enthusiastic support for them as I get ready to transition to Truett.

Mark Tooley:

Now, of course, Baylor University is a historically a Baptist institution, so this is somewhat of a new development for them and for their Truett Seminary. And if I know the history correctly, the late great William Abraham, perhaps Methodism’s of late greatest theologian, during these recent last years played a key role in setting up this new program of Wesleyan Studies at Baylor.

Jason Vickers:

That’s right, and in the program is up and running. So, there they already have a lot of students, their Methodist students in the Wesley House of Studies. But Billy Abraham did, in fact, play a key role in helping to launch that along with several others, as I understand it. There are people like Ryan Barnett, Rusty Freeman, Kevin Watson, and others who have contributed to the establishment of the Wesley House of Studies.

So, it’s in that sense it’s new, but it’s not brand new it’s. It’s something that is already in development. It’s underway., and there’s already a so much momentum in terms of student enrollment, and just the overall vision for the Wesley House of Studies that Dean Todd still and, Associate Dean Angela Reid and others have. So just to say a word, though, about Billy’s role and Truett. And you know that was a really a major factor for me, and also about Truett’s Baptist identity as you rightly note, Baylor’s Baptist identity, I actually think that there’s a sense in which it having a Wesley House of Studies in a Baptist setting is going to be beneficial for the ongoing development of Wesleyan Theology. Now I could say the same thing about having a Wesley House of Studies in in other settings, a Catholic or a Lutheran kind of setting. And I actually think that’s very much in keeping with Billy Abraham’s theological legacy. So, if I can just say a couple of things about what that is, for me, at least a part of it, and how, I see Wesleyan Studies moving, what I’m committed to, what I hope to be doing as the Abraham Chair at Truett in the Wesley House of Studies.  And that is that Wesleyan theology is, as you know, indebted to the late Albert Outler, among others. And we have experienced over the last half century a great renaissance in Wesleyan studies, which has to do with the study of John and Charles Wesley.

But the Wesleyan tradition is much bigger than just the Wesleys, just the eighteenth-century English revival. It includes all kinds of other developments, so such that it is now a global phenomenon, a truly global form of Christianity. And so, it has, you know, all kinds of ecclesiastical forms, holiness denominations and churches, African American denominations and churches, AME Zion, and so forth, and other expressions of the Wesleyan tradition. So, I think one task for Wesleyan studies going forward is, we need to attend to the development of the Wesleyan tradition beyond the Wesleys and beyond early American Methodism. So, we really need to explore the Wesleyan tradition in all of its forms across the centuries and around the world. That’s one of the things that I hope to be doing at Truett, and in the Wesley House of Studies.

So, this the second part, though, is where I’m going to come to Truett, its Baptist identity, and why, I think that is exciting. Why, I’m excited by personally the locating of a Wesley House of Studies in a Baptist setting.

You know the Wesleyan theological tradition is, as I mentioned, we’ve spent half a century really working to recover the work, the theology of John and Charles Wesley and I’d be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge people like not just Billy Abraham, but Randy Maddox and my colleague at Asbury, Ken Collins, among many others who have worked  tirelessly now for decades to recover and promote the theology of the Wesleys, and that is, of course, foundational for the Wesleyan tradition.

Having said that, John Wesley, and Charles, for that matter they have certain limits. They emphasize certain things in theology, but no one, very few, anyway, can say everything, very few can work in theology in a truly comprehensive way. They’re only a handful of Aquinas’s right, and Wesley is not Aquinas.

Now I think there are some areas in Christian theology that are underdeveloped historically in the Wesleyan tradition. So just to give you one quick example, because this is the other part of my own work, and what I’m excited about doing, at Truett in the Wesley House of Studies, and as the Abraham Chair. Take Christology, and especially the doctrine of the Atonement, I’ve often said that the Atonement is, you know, it has a kind of dogmatic status for Wesleyans. Specifically, it’s unlimited nature. If you deny the unlimited nature of the Atonement, you might be a Christian, but you’re not Wesleyan, right. It’s just constituent of Wesleyan Christianity, the unlimited atonement, the problem, or the weakness, as it were, in even in John Wesley, to some degree, is the linking of the Atonement, or thinking about the Atonement primarily, perhaps not exclusively, but primarily, in connection with the suffering and death of Christ on the Cross, which is, of course, of atoning significance, but attending to the fullness of Christ’s work, the whole of Christ’s work from incarnation all the way through to Ascension, Resurrection, Ascension; and Second Coming.

What is the atoning significance of the whole of Christ’s work, you know, in the early Church, the Incarnation itself was of a toning significance, or it was of significance for how they thought about God’s great work of salvation. So, I think we need to explore. We need to more fully develop Christology within the Wesleyan tradition. And I’m just giving you one example of this. There would be many other ways. We’re not particularly well thought out at times on things like divine sovereignty. We leave that to our Calvinist brothers and sisters right, and we need to spend more time thinking about that. Now that brings me to Truett, Mark, you know that that Baptist setting is going to help us. Wesleyans like myself, to hear and ask new questions of our own tradition, to think about topics like the Atonement from new angles, and to have new conversation partners that will help us to develop Wesleyan theology going forward. And now lastly, just quickly, here all of this has to be done with a view toward, the well-being, the glory of God and the well-being of the world. This is certainly my vision. You know we are interested in all Wesleyans who would like to come and study and train for the work of ministry in a way that is always working to facilitate a conversation between theology on the one hand, and things like evangelism, catechesis and formation worship, missionary work, service on the other.

Personally, I’m very hopeful that we will have Wesleyans from many denominations come and be in conversation together about what it means to do theology for the glory of God and the life of the world.

Mark Tooley:

Now, Jason, all of this unfolds at a moment of upheaval for the United Methodist Church, which is the largest Wesleyan body in the United States, and United Methodism has thirteen official seminaries. Plus, your Asbury Theological Seminary, although not official, produces more Methodist seminarians than any other school. So now we have added to the mix the seminary at Baylor. As much of United Methodism divides, with the creation of a new Global Methodist church, and likely, certainly several thousand congregations exiting United Methodism, most of whom will affiliate with that Global Methodist Church. So, for Truett Theological Seminary, and its Wesleyan Studies Program, who will its constituency be? Will it straddle all of these, Global Methodists, United Methodists, and the other Wesleyan denominations?

Jason Vickers:

I certainly hope so. I, or at least I hope that, in terms of the kind of theological commitments that Truett has, and those are available on its website. There’s a statement there that you can look at in terms of its theological commitments. You know, I don’t see Truett or the Wesley House of Studies in particular, as being exclusive to any one particular Methodist or Wesleyan denomination.

Now, realistically, I think that it certainly now, and in the near term true, it is likely to serve United Methodists, Global Methodists and other Methodists in Texas and the surrounding states. And I think that’s partly because most of the theological education at Truett, it certainly not all, but a lot of it is in person, and so that might present some challenges for someone coming from New England, say, but of course, we would welcome someone from New England, if they wanted to relocate, and who knows what the future will hold in terms of, our resourcing people through distance education, something that, as you know, Asbury Theological seminary has pioneered and is known. For now, what I what to say here, though most, Mark, is that I want to come back to Billy Abraham for a minute.

You know Billy always had a kind of optimism about the future, and that he was a realist. He was not one to ignore challenges, difficulties division, as you’ve been mentioning the Global Methodist, United Methodist situation. He was never one to ignore those things, but he was something of an eternal optimist, and part of that optimism is that he would say things like, you know. You never know, what the Holy Spirit will do in the future. What new kind of fresh developments will happen even in the midst of division, even in the midst of human beings behaving badly, not loving one another as we ought, even in the midst of when sometimes when we are at our worst. Nevertheless, God, doesn’t give up on us. Now what I’m trying to say there is that I kind of view something like the Wesley House of Studies, at Truett, as one of these fresh developments that people didn’t see coming, and I think there will be more of those. The situation that we’re in the division of the United Methodist Church at present, and or the disaffiliating congregations that are leaving either to be independent or to perhaps join other denominations, like the Free Methodist Church, I think a couple of congregations have done that. And then, of course, the emergence of the Global Methodist Church In the middle of all of this, I think what we will see when we look back in ten, twenty, thirty years is the emergence of new institutions, new ministries that we’re not there before all of this started happening, and so, as it’s difficult, it’s hard. It’s for those of us going through.

But I have, you know, a sort of confidence, if you will, in the Holy Spirit to be present among us, even while we’re feuding with one another. And I think that we’re going to see a tremendous thing in the Wesleyan tradition in the days ahead.

Mark Tooley:

And it goes without saying, Jason, that the Wesleyan Studies Program at Truett will be committed to classical Christian teaching and traditional Methodism.

Jason Vickers:

That’s correct, and you look on its website you will find a kind of robust theological statement that Wesleyans can celebrate, and I should say here that while I will be a part of the Wesley House of Studies at Truett, the other faculty at Truett, and even Baylor as a whole, the wider resources, both faculty and other resources of Baylor University, are world class. I mean, they are extraordinary. So, we, their faculty, who teach in areas like early Christianity, who specialize in things like early Biblical interpretation, who can walk you through someone like Augustine and others in the early church, so there’s just one question, a quick example. I’m thinking, one professor will hide among others here. You know there’re so many faculty resources at Baylor that will be accessible to Wesleyans and Methodists, and as I have met and gotten to know the people who will be my new colleagues in the fall of 2023 and beyond my sense is yes, Mark, they are committed to classical Christian orthodoxy, and frankly, I find them to be theologically, utterly compatible with Wesleyanism.

Mark Tooley:

Jason Vickers, professor at Asbury Theological Seminary and the newly appointed to chair at Truett Theological Seminary for the new or somewhat new Wesleyan Studies Program there named for the late great William Abraham, thank you very much for an encouraging conversation, and we look forward to following exciting developments in your career and down there at Baylor University, at the Methodist Studies Program.

Jason Vickers:

Thank you, Mark.