Hong Kong’s Jailed Hero

(This conversation can be heard by downloadable podcast here.)

Hello! This is Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, here in downtown Washington, DC., on a dark, cold late November evening with the pleasure and hopefully the warmth of talking to author and journalist, my fellow Mark, Mark Clifford, with an important new book about the courageous Hong Kong, dissident now in prison, Jimmy Lai, which I commend to you. So, Mark, thanks so much for joining us, and thank you for writing this book, The Troublemaker: How Jimmy Lai Became a Billionaire, Hong Kong’s Greatest Dissident, and China’s Most Feared Critic.

Mark L. Clifford

Well, Mark, thanks for your interest and thanks for your support. And I think it’s

I hope the message I convey is one of one of the most extraordinary, certainly one of the most extraordinary political prisoners we have in the world today a man of deep faith, whose faith is helping him survive prison.

Mark Tooley

Now, I’m sure the vast majority of our listeners are not familiar with Jimmy Lai, who was a very successful businessman in Hong Kong, who could have easily left Hong Kong and lived anywhere he wanted to in the world, but chose to stay and to resist the Beijing crackdown on freedom in Hong Kong, and is now in prison. Tell us more about who this man is.

Mark L. Clifford

Sure. Jimmy Lai came to Hong Kong as a 12-year-old he escaped famine in China. It was a famine that went on to kill about 45 million people. So, Jimmy was one of a couple of 1 million people who fled Communist poverty, starvation, political persecution for the freedom of Hong Kong. He went from sleeping on a factory floor to owning a factory for a little more than a dozen years. It came as a 12-year-old, smuggled on a fishing boat, and became one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the city. And that’s saying a lot, because there are a lot of successful entrepreneurs in in Hong Kong, and freedom for him meant just the freedom to eat.

Then it was the freedom to start a business, the freedom to make money, but as time went on it was political freedom. He was. He was powerfully affected by the 1989 Tiananmen protests, democracy protests, and subsequent killings in Beijing and went on to start a magazine and a newspaper and become a troublemaker, which is the title of my book. It’s what Jimmy calls himself, and became kind of public enemy number one for the Chinese who didn’t like the fact that he was a man of principle, a man of faith, and a man who spoke his own mind.

Mark Tooley

And he has been in prison. Now has it been 2 years, or have I lost track of time?

Mark L. Clifford

Well, yeah, it’s easy to lose track. It’s actually it’ll be 4 years in in December. So, and most of that time he’s been in solitary confinement. So that’s over 1,400 days in prison, and anything over, in solitary confinement, according to the United Nations principles, the Mandela Principles should be a last resort, and it really shouldn’t be for more than about 15 days at a time. It’s usually if you’ve been in a fight or something. Here you’ve got a peaceful 76-year-old guy, a diabetic, not in great health, that you’re holding in solitary confinement. So, it’s really, it’s really cruel punishment. And it’s so unnecessary, so unreasonable. Here’s a guy who’s in jail just for doing his job, which was running a newspaper.

Mark Tooley

And many of our listeners will recall the crackdown in Hong Kong which was horrifying to watch the thousands of courageous protesters singing songs, secular and religious songs of esistance and of freedom, but could not prevail. Jimmy Lai went to prison. The charges against him are specifically?

Mark L. Clifford

They’re specifically so vague that even I can’t understand them. And the prosecution doesn’t really eithert. They don’t seem to like the fact that he doesn’t like the Chinese or the Hong Kong governments. He’s a very patriotic guy, but he’s opposed to the Chinese Communist Party, and he did ask the Chinese Government to uphold its promises to the people of Hong Kong when they took over the former British colony in 1997, and those promises centered on continued freedom in Hong Kong. Continued rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion. And so, the charges, I mean honestly, it’s really a kind of Alice in Wonderland trial, because they don’t seem to be anything more than practicing journalism. And last I heard, practicing journalism wasn’t a crime. But they brought in this kind of very vague and sweeping Draconian national security law. So, I said, it’s Alice in Wonderland, but it’s kind of like Alice in Wonderland meets Kafka meets George Orwell. It’s like the law is whatever they say they want it to mean, whatever the authorities wanted to mean, and they don’t seem to like the fact that Lai was a prominent businessman who was willing to spend his money, put it where his mouth was, and to uphold his principles, and, as you say, he could have left at any moment. He has, you know, houses or apartments in Paris, London, Kyoto, Taipei, and he chose to stay.

Many people asked him, urged him to leave. and his response to one of them that I talked to was I’d rather be hanging from a lamp post in central Hong Kong than give the Chinese Communists the satisfaction of saying that I ran away. He is not the kind of guy who would run, and he’s suffering for his principles, and he’s buoyed by his deep faith. He converted to Catholicism in 1997 just after the handover, and he’s supported by his faith and by his wife, who’s a devout Catholic as well, Teresa.

Mark Tooley

And his self-sacrifice is this inspirational to hundreds of thousands of people in Hong Kong.

Mark L. Clifford

I think it’s inspirational to the people of Hong Kong. Every time there’s been an election in Hong Kong about 6 out of 10 people have voted for the pro-democracy candidates, and

Jimmy is the most prominent person. He’s actually, it’s interesting. He’s never run for political office. He doesn’t want political power. So again, it’s ironic that he’s being persecuted. But Jimmy is the symbol of resistance in Hong Kong. He’s the most high-profile political prisoner.

He’s the one that they’ve almost tailored. This this national security law for him. And he’s looking at life in prison. There’s a 97% conviction rate. So, it’s very unlikely that he’ll be found innocent. So, we’re looking at a guilty verdict and even the minimum 10-year sentence. It’s more or less a death sentence for a 76-year-old, who’s not in the greatest health. He’s very inspirational, not only to hundreds of thousands of people in Hong Kong. But I would say to many more around the world to you know, just have to admire a guy who will.  You know, kind of stake, stake it all, spend his money, and, above all, sacrifice his freedom, for what he believes in.

Mark Tooley

Now I’ve heard him described as brash and brassy, and not your stereotypical Catholic saint. So maybe it was a surprise to many that he seems to have this very deep faith that has given him the courage and the fortitude to resist.

Mark L. Clifford

Well, I think it’s kind of a Pilgrim’s Progress. As I looked at his life in this biography.

he was pretty wild, I mean, first of all, look, he’s really brave, comes as a 12-year-old, I mean escaping this famine, I mean in China. If he managed to catch a field mouse and grill it, that was like a major delicacy for him and his sisters. Their mother was off at a labor camp a lot of the time. He makes it to Hong Kong gets into the wild, freewheeling garment world. He’s a salesman, pretty hard, partier kind of a libertine as a younger man. I don’t think he would deny that, would he? He wouldn’t balk at that characterization. But his life changed after he met Teresa, his first wife, left him, and he was left with 3 pretty young kids. He met Teresa just after the Tiananmen killings of 1989, and she helped bring a real ballast to his life. He had many close Catholic friends, many, many people in the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong are Catholics, and, as I said, he converted mid-1997. So, it was an 8-year conversion process very quick when it happened. Even then I wouldn’t say he was still a libertine, but his newspapers are pretty hard charging and went to the edge, and sometimes beyond good taste, but it’s in the last few years, and I think, especially since he’s been in prison, that his faith has become, you know, just a real ballast, a real foundation, and people who know him well, have described his life as kind of like that of a Benedictine monk. He’s not like a wild-eyed prophet out in the desert. He’s a guy who doesn’t have a choice as to when his lights go on, when he’s going to eat, let alone what he’s going to eat. His life is very, very regiment, just as a Benedictine monks would be. He spends a lot of his day reading theology, drawing religious subjects, praying, doing prison labor. So, you know, his faith, I think, is, and the love of his wife, is really everything for him.

Mark Tooley

Hong Kong is about 20% Christian, but I understand the influence of Christianity in Hong Kong is much greater than those numbers might imply in that churches typically have run many of the schools, many of the hospitals, many of the charities, and that church people were especially prominent in the freedom, resistance movement, which I’m sure was very encouraging to Jimmy Lai.

Mark L. Clifford

Yeah, absolutely. You hit a good point, Mark. The British colonial government really didn’t invest in education. And in fact, primary education wasn’t even compulsory until, even primary education wasn’t compulsory until the early 1970s. Churches would run schools, especially Catholic churches, and they would get a subsidy from the government. So many, many people went through the Catholic educational system, and there are quite a few Catholics as well as Protestants in Hong Kong. The Catholics have had an outsized influence on the pro-democracy movement. For whatever reason, I think it’s because of the close connections between the Anglican Church and the British colonial government, Anglicans just were not as prominent. Catholics just took on an outsized role. And I think that that’s still to this day, I mean, there are prominent Catholics in the government as well. They’re not all pro-democracy, but the Catholic Church and Christianity in general, because the Catholic church in particular has a disproportionate weight in in Hong Kong politics and democracy movement. And I should particularly mention Cardinal Zen, Cardinal Joseph Zen, born in Shanghai, suffered under Communist rule, has been in Hong Kong for decades, is a huge supporter of Jimmy. He baptized Jimmy. He’s continued to visit Jimmy in prison to give him communion, although that’s now that’s been denied to Jimmy in recent months. So, Cardinal Zen has attended the ongoing National security law trial of Jimmy, even though he’s in his nineties, and he’s, you know, increasingly frail. So, there are other great Catholic examples in in Hong Kong that I think are helping buoy the spirit of the majority of Hong Kong people who are pro-democracy, who do want freedom, and I think helps buoy the spirits of all of us who care about Hong Kong and freedom, and want to stand up to the ruthlessness of the Chinese Communist Party.

Mark Tooley

There have been complaints that the Catholic Church internationally has not been supportive of Jimmy Lai. Perhaps they’re doing more behind the scenes. But what is your assessment?

Mark L. Clifford

Well, if they’re doing something behind the scenes, it’s really behind the scenes, because nobody’s been able to find any evidence of it. I think it’s very disappointing that the Holy Father has not spoken out for Jimmy, and nobody in the Vatican seems to be giving him any support whatsoever. More broadly. I think Cardinal Zen and others have expressed deep concern that the Church seems more concerned with its agreement with the Chinese Communist authorities as a way of somehow softening Beijing up to be able to be more active in China. Now it’s not for me to tell the church what they should be doing. B I think from the outside it seems very, very disappointing that they are willing to give up their right to decide who you know, who can be a priest. And they basically share that and say they basically outsourced it to the Communists, which just seems anathema to everything that the Church stands for. So yeah, the Vatican has been very, very disappointing. I do think there are many Catholics around the world who have been really supportive of Jimmy. And I think that’s especially true in the United States. And it’s really encouraging. It means so much to his family and others who are fighting for him.

Mark Tooley

Obviously, we all pray and hope for his eventual freedom, but the prospects seem pretty damn, and it seems very likely that he is willingly, voluntarily taken on the life of a martyr who will stay the rest of his life in prison.

Mark L. Clifford

Well, I think Jimmy, I never heard them say this, but at least I don’t think I have. But Jimmy and Cardinal Zen, I’m told, used to joke that it’d be wonderful to die in prison. Obviously, that’s not a joke. But I mean, I think it testifies to the deep, deep faith and commitment that both of them have. I do have to say, though, Mark, I’m optimistic, God, that we can get Jimmy out, that the world can help ensure that Jimmy can be freed and can spend his remaining years in the company of his family and loved ones. I think many of us were encouraged when Donald Trump, during the campaign, promised that he would get Jimmy Lai out. He said it would be easy, 100% sure. And I think that’s terrific to have a President-elect, an incoming President who’s already served as President, who knows what he can and can’t do, to be committed to getting Jimmy Lai out. I think we just have to keep up the pressure. Ultimately, it’s up to Xi Jinping to decide, and I hope he’ll decide. It’s the right thing to do. Honestly speaking, I can hardly think of a lower cost, higher reward move than to let Jimmy Lai out. It would really help reframe relations between China and the West and come at really no cost at all to the Chinese. So, I hope that Donald Trump and others can help convince Xi Jinping of the wisdom of that kind of move.

Mark Tooley

If the Chinese agreed to release him with the stipulation he must leave Hong Kong, would he agree, do you think?

Mark L. Clifford

With a stipulation that he must leave Hong Kong?

Mark Tooley

Yes.

Mark L. Clifford

Yes, I think he absolutely, I think whether or not they stipulated, I think he’s ready to leave Hong Kong. That’s what his son, Sebastian, has said recently, and I, you know honestly, there has to be a way out. He’s not in great health, I mean, that would be, you know, if he went to Singapore for a start. He is a Uk citizen as well. He’s a full British citizen. He’s never had a Chinese passport. He left the country as a starving 12-year-old, and lived under the protection of British colonial rule, and then got a British passport. He’s had that passport for over 30 years now, so I’d like to see the UK step up, and I’m sure that would be a welcome home for him as well.

Mark Tooley

Do you have any cause for optimism about the fate of Hong Kong itself?

Mark L. Clifford

Well, I think that the DNA of Hong Kong is really pro freedom, it’s kind of inbred in Hong Kong, and whether it’s a free economy, free speech. And as I said, six out of 10 Hong Kong people always voted for pro-democracy candidates from the first territory wide elections in 1991 until the last ones in November 2019, after a very raucous summer of protests. And I think you know, Hong Kong people either are in Hong Kong because they fled China or their parents or their grandparents fled China, so I don’t think anybody in Hong Kong would willingly choose to have the kind of repressive anti-freedom regime of that the Chinese Communist Chinese have imposed. So, you know, we’ll see. I mean, it just depends on what happens in China. Nothing lasts forever. I remember the Berlin Wall going up. I lived in Berlin and saw the wall, and then there was no more wall, so none of us can predict what’s going to happen. But I think Hong Kong plays for time. Jimmy plays for time, and the spirit of resistance is clearly alive in small ways. What the Hong Kong Government derives is soft resistance. But yeah, Hong Kong people want freedom, and I hope they’ll have a chance to exercise it again.

Mark Tooley

Is there any evidence that many people in mainland China are watching the situation in Hong Kong that they’re aware of Jimmy Lai? Or is the news, blackout, so complete that they’re almost entirely clueless.

Mark L. Clifford

I think they’re almost entirely clueless, but I do think that the people who matter, the intelligentsia, both in China and mainlanders who travel are pretty aware. I also think it’s interesting that the Hong Kong newspapers, even the pro-government pro-Beijing ones for the most part, except for the ones that are by the party and the South China Morning Post sadly. But a number of papers are playing the Jimmy Live trial pretty straight. They’re not just running as a government propaganda exercise, which also supports the thesis that Jimmy has a lot of support among people of Hong Kong. People in Hong Kong at least know what’s going on. It’s tougher in the mainland, with such a such intense news blackout.

Mark Tooley

Well, if Jimmy Lai finds his freedom, are you going to write a sequel to your book?

Mark L. Clifford

I have to say it’s been difficult. Although I’ve known Jimmy for over 30 years, I was on the board of directors of his media company. It’s kind of tough writing a biography when you can’t double check all the facts with your subject, so I’d certainly like to sit down with him and fill in some of the holes. And yeah, yeah, I’d love to write a sequel with the last chapter being his freedom. That would delight me more.

Mark Tooley

Do you have any way to communicate indirectly with him?

Mark L. Clifford

No, I wrote him a couple of times when he first went into prison, but then we started this group committee for freedom in Hong Kong Foundation. Since most of the National Security Law seems to be designed to punish him for his contacts with foreigners. It didn’t seem like it would do him any good, so I’m not in touch with him.

Mark Tooley

Let me hold up your book one more time, and the last chapter is yet to be written. But we pray and hope for good news, Makr Clifford, thank you so much for this very inspirational conversation, and thank you for your advocacy, and on behalf of a true hero, for human rights and human freedom.

Mark L. Clifford

Well, Mark, thanks so much for your interest in your support, and I hope you and Jimmy, and I can have a conversation in happier times once he’s out. So, thanks again.

Mark Tooley

Well, I look forward to hosting an event for him here in Washington, DC.