The longstanding relationship between The Gideons International and the United Methodist Church (UMC) has reached a breaking point following the UMC’s recent General Conference.
That conference saw the denomination abandon its commitment to traditional Christian sexual ethics, thereby destroying a century-long bond with the Gideons, who now will cease cooperation with United Methodist congregations who endorse same-sex marriage. As the UMC shifts its stance on doctrinal issues, it finds itself at odds with the Gideons and its other historic partners, who remain steadfast in their adherence to biblical principles.
The Gideons International is an organization of Christian businessmen responsible for distributing more than 70 million Bibles annually to prisons, military installations, and, most iconically, hotels. Founded in 1899, the Gideons have produced over two billion Bibles and are among the most prolific Bible distribution ministries on the planet. The Gideons also record testimonies of those who credit their salvation with chancing across a “Gideon Bible” in a time of dire need.
The relationship between the Gideons and Methodists stretches back to the beginnings of the Gideons ministry. Since the first years of the Gideons, when the organization was small and restricted to the Midwest, Methodist churches were used to hold meetings. When Teddy Roosevelt was elected an honorary Gideon at the 1901 convention, he was elected at a Methodist church. Wherever the Gideons have gone, they have always had the enthusiastic support of Methodists.
This ministry is not merely Methodist by accident; the vigorous propagation of the Word is quintessentially Wesleyan. Where modern liberal Christians squirm at the Gideons’ biblicism, Wesley would have delighted, labeling himself in his Journal as a “Bible-bigot.” As an etymological note, bigot in Wesley’s time was a term of abuse for the excessively pious. Thus, the Bible-printing mission of the Gideons is a natural complement to Wesley’s theological legacy.
To be a member of the Gideons, one must be an adult man and conform to a set of spiritual beliefs that are entirely uncontroversial for most Biblical Christians. Among these requisites is the commitment to “the Biblical standard of marriage being between one biological man and one biological woman.” The Gideons International uses assent to its fundamental spiritual beliefs as a condition for collaboration in denominational ministries.
After this year’s General Conference, when the UMC abandoned its commitment to Christian sexual morality, the UMC’s relationship with the Gideons has been strained. Gideon Sunday has long been a target for progressives in the church, who take issue with the Gideons’ commitment to biblical inerrancy and solely male membership. Women are welcome into the Gideons’ Auxiliary, but the gender issue has proven a helpful wedge to justify disassociation by progressive pastors. Many more liberal jurisdictions have quietly disinvited Gideon speakers from their parishes this year, closing ranks around the gay marriage issue and distancing from organizations that hold to traditional Christian teaching on the matter.
The antipathy between the UMC and the Gideons is mutual. Currently, the Gideons have not blanketly disaffiliated from United Methodist churches due to sympathy for congregations who could not afford to exit the denomination. Rather, the Gideons have adopted a case-by-case standard for continued involvement with UMC churches, but they have not retreated from their firm opposition to same-sex marriage or noncelibate homosexual leadership. Collaboration with UMC churches will require conversations with pastors to ensure that traditional sexual ethics are held. Faithful churches trapped in the UMC are, thus, still permitted to collaborate with the Gideons, conditioned on their repudiation of same-sex marriage and noncelibate LGBT clergy.
Despite the Gideons’ willingness to exercise mercy towards individual congregations, as they report to Juicy Ecumenism, “most UMC churches will be ineligible moving forward from today.” Given the UMC’s doubling down on LGBT issues, this likely spells the end of Gideon’s collaboration with the United Methodist Church writ large in the foreseeable future.
The Gideons’ ministry will continue with or without the United Methodist Church. Gideon Sunday remains a tradition in Global Methodist, conservative Lutheran, Baptist, and other denominations that have maintained their commitment to historic Christian teachings.
The UMC’s General Conference decisions have not only cost the denomination a quarter of its churches but also dislocate the UMC from its own traditions in real-time. For the past three years, the UMC has used #BeUMC as a slogan, but its decisions at General Conference have made the authentic practice of United Methodism, as historically conceived, nearly impossible. In the interest of contemporary politics, the church claiming John Wesley’s mantle, whose devotion to the Bible was so intense that he described himself as a “man of one book,” has now ostracized one of the largest organizations propagating God’s Word.
Comment by David on July 29, 2024 at 9:01 am
Several hotel brands such as Travel Lodge and Disney resort hotels have removed Gideon Bibles from their guest rooms in recent decades.
“Some hotel chains, such as Best Western, Choice, Hilton, and IHG Hotels, allow property owners and operators to decide whether to provide religious materials in rooms, including Bibles. Some reasons hotels may remove Bibles from rooms include:
Declining interest
Consumerism
Fear of causing offense
Inclusivity: Some hotels may want to feel inclusive of all beliefs and spiritual traditions “
Comment by D Murray on July 29, 2024 at 10:43 am
Shows the focus has changed from having a Bible available for the individual’s use to one of preaching something, and this is the case with both sides.
File it under – when children don’t play nice with their toys the toys are taken away from them. Both sides really need to understand – people are getting done being used for the whatever of the group’s ‘mission’. But, you both keep on with it as people empty out, and turn off what is increasingly seen in terms related to pest. I watched both sides go for the extreme, and I see these both as a waste of time.
Comment by Tim Ware on July 29, 2024 at 12:32 pm
Well said, D Murray.
Comment by Thomas on July 29, 2024 at 9:31 pm
If you renounce the Christian faith, like UMC has done, you have no right anymore to a Bible. The Gideons are doing the right thing.
Comment by Donna Garner on July 29, 2024 at 10:02 pm
Always Stand on God’s Word and it will be ok. In the end times Jesus said we would be purscuted by Standing in our Biblical teachings of Christ. Thank you Gideons for Standing on God’s word. Our Church left the UMC because of their failures to teach the True word of Christ and follow it.
Comment by John on July 29, 2024 at 10:10 pm
The UMC wants to make a broader range of its congregation feel more comfortable. I can’t imagine that Jesus Christ was very comfortable being crucified.
Comment by Emmanuel Tandoh on July 29, 2024 at 11:36 pm
I attend a UMC Church but they have embraced the gay concept and even used the word mother for God.Those make me very uncomfortable.
Comment by Tim on July 30, 2024 at 12:45 am
I’m sorry that another organization more conservative than the UMC has decided to break ties with us. But once again, it wasn’t us who broke the ties or stormed out of the room: it was the conservatives. We mourn the schism and pray for healing and understanding.
What we won’t do is abandon our witness. Just as the best person on the Jericho road was a Samaritan when Samaritans aren’t supposed to be holy, in our communities and churches some of the best people happen to be LGBT. Just as the man needed healing on the sabbath and Jesus healed him in spite of the Pharisees, we will continue to affirm the worth and dignity of our LGBT friends and families because it’s the right thing to do, even if it offends the right wing.
Comment by Douglas E Ehrhardt on July 30, 2024 at 7:08 am
Jesus never affirmed sin. The alphabet people are the tip of the spear in the woke destruction of humanity. Nowhere in the Bible is sodomy or perversion prompted as something good. Of course the Bible is divisive today .
Comment by David on July 30, 2024 at 8:21 am
Smashing up the tables of the religious needs vendors in the Court of the Gentiles, largely a marketplace outside the Temple proper, was surely a sin.
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. Luke 18:19
Comment by Rob Kealey on July 30, 2024 at 9:26 am
Interesting that we get all twisted over who we choose to live our lives with, but don’t seem to have a problem with adultery.
Pretty sure the Bible takes a dim view of that too.
Comment by Tanisha on July 30, 2024 at 9:35 am
As the UMC fights it’s way further and further away from the Gospel, it is not surprising that Christian organizations will eventually have to let them go down that path alone.
Comment by Mike Knezevich on July 30, 2024 at 9:42 am
The UMC did not abandon its commitment to Christian sexual morality; they literally venerated it. The Gideons are wrong, and the UMC is right. The writer of this article is blatantly and obviously biased to favor the Gideons instead of doing what is right. The writer of this article should be fired for biased reporting, slandering, and denigrating the United Methodist Church. Shame on you. Don’t email me with some stupid rebuttal. I’m not interested in the writer of this article’s editorialized bigotry.
Comment by John on July 30, 2024 at 11:26 am
The Gideons are a wonderful ministry and they will always be welcome in any church I Pastor (Presbyterian, not Methodist, but same principle.).
Comment by Osage on July 30, 2024 at 11:30 am
Oh yes , let’s be accepting of those calling God mother or officiating in marriage between same sex couples. (Sarc)
We are ALL sinners, but when a church condones practices that is against God’s direction, that’s another thing. Read Leviticus. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah
Comment by Skipper on July 30, 2024 at 11:31 am
The Bible offers the UMC no support on its position. Everyone who can read knows what the Bible says about morality and perversion. Its all through the Bible. It’s too bad when people choose to roller skate down the Wide and Easy Road that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 7:13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” All we can do is call them back to God. Its up to them to turn back to God. The world and its culture call them over and over and offer what seems like a good deal. You “get what you want” from the world, but as Adrian Rogers said, “you won’t want what you get.” So nice that the Gideons have Christian principles like John Wesley and his family.
Comment by Shane on July 30, 2024 at 11:42 am
The Bible is very clear on this issue. Stomping one’s feet or shaking one’s fist in the air does not and will not change God’s will and mandate for his creation.
The alphabet mission and goal goes against the almighty, as does adultery.
Both will be judged harshly, but repentance and one’s own personal desire to be one with God and his stated will. Will be forgiven. But one must change to God’s way, not ours and especially man’s.
Comment by Pastor Dennis Whitmore on July 30, 2024 at 12:07 pm
John Wesley said that (I’m paraphrasing) if the Methodist Church departs from the doctrine and discipline of the faith, it would become another dead sect.
He said he was a man of one Book. So it’s clear what he meant. And his words are being fulfilled.
Comment by G. Thorngrom on July 30, 2024 at 12:22 pm
Why would the Videos want to basically withhold the Word of God when it’s needed?
Comment by Tim on July 30, 2024 at 12:42 pm
And the Woke United Methodist Deacons, Pastors, Bishops, Lay people carry on. The only thing that will get their attention is a lack of money. Some day, the lack of offerings will cause them to double down on their anger of those who have left them.
Comment by D Murray on July 30, 2024 at 12:56 pm
‘If you renounce the Christian faith, like UMC has done, you have no right anymore to a Bible.’
What a wild and strange thought. Enough said. It’s not the property of this or that group.
Comment by Pensrep on July 30, 2024 at 1:07 pm
The conservative “Christian” sects refuse to apply the same standards to the biblical teachings about divorce, adultery, food selections, etc. all the “shall nots” are in the Old Testament. Jesus had comments about divorce but non about gay men. Sooo…It seems to be more about control than Biblical morals.
Comment by D Howard on July 30, 2024 at 2:08 pm
It’s impossible to be a truly Christian church or Bible believing and promoting organization when you do not believe and uphold what the Bible teaches. The United Methodist Church as an organization is no longer a Bible teaching organization resulting in a decision by its churches to either choose to accept the misinterpretations and lies of that organization or choose to accept the Word is God. It can’t be both. The Gideons are doing the right thing, especially in the case by case decision. There are quite a few small UMC churches that can’t financially support themselves. But if they stay with the UMC then they will likely lose members to other churches
Comment by David on July 30, 2024 at 3:37 pm
The whole history of Christianity is of groups splitting away, usually for theological reasons. There are estimates that there are about 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide.
Comment by Southern Scott on July 30, 2024 at 4:00 pm
Pensrep is wrong. In Matthew 19 Jesus declares that marriage is between a man and a woman. Also Christians are not under the old testament purity laws such as food restrictions. We are bound by the intent of the morality law.
Also all sins are forgiveable if you seek forgiveness in faith. The problem with a person who is a practicing homosexual or in a gay marriage is that it is a lifestyle sin. Basically it is intentional sin on a constant basis. Same issue with a serial adultery or a career criminal. You have to stop the sin or be sincerely trying.
Thank God my church is now a GMC and I look forward to my next Gideon Sunday.
Comment by Juicy Observer on July 31, 2024 at 12:08 am
This is perhaps the most singularly biased article I have come across on the internet (and that’s saying quite a lot!). Basically “the thing I believe is right and everyone agrees with me except for the libtards who are ruining my puritanical boredom!” with a twist of “don’t worry, ladies, you’re not good enough for our society, but you can be ‘auxiliary’ members!” next thing you know they may even allow them women folk to teach the children’s Sunday School class!
Comment by Let's Be Honest Here... on July 31, 2024 at 12:18 am
This is the dumbest ministry ever anyway. Instead of actually following what’s in the Bible and feeding the poor, they’ve wasted an infinite amount of money printing 2 billion dollars worth of Bibles. Would be cool if people ever actually looked at them (not to discount the like 6 people in their YouTube channel who were flown out on a free trip to LA in exchange for the “gift” of a studio recording telling someone how their night at a Holiday Inn turned their life around) – – but let’s be honest here… the only time that 99.97% of the human population has ever accidentally run across a Gideons Bible was when they were fumbling through the drawers late at night looking for where the hotel keeps tissues, lotion, or the wifi password…
Comment by Tim on July 31, 2024 at 7:31 am
The Gideons gave me a New Testament when I enrolled at both colleges I attended. That was in the 1970’s. The Gideons are planting seeds. Some land on rocky ground, some land on ground with lots of weeds and some seeds land on fertile ground and grow and multiply 100, 60 or 30 fold. It is not the Gideons job to change people into Christians. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. May God give you a Paul moment on the Damascus Road.
Comment by Tim Ware on July 31, 2024 at 7:48 am
The comments to this article illustrate a basic fact: There are 2 sides. Each side believes it is 100% right. Each side hates all who don’t agree with them. (Yes, so-called inclusive ones, you hate those who don’t agree with you just as much as the other side does.)
Comment by Skipper on July 31, 2024 at 11:18 am
Dear “Lets be honest here,” you would be surprised at the number of people who have have come to God through a Bible placed or given by the Gideons. They write each month to say how their life has changed. God says this about his Word in Isaiah 55:10-11:
“Rain and snow fall from the sky.
But they don’t return
without watering the earth
that produces seeds to plant
and grain to eat.
11 That’s how it is with my words.
They don’t return to me
without doing everything
I send them to do.”
Comment by Douglas Richardson on July 31, 2024 at 5:52 pm
I was told by my UMC preacher that in 2 years there would be no place in the UMC for a conservative so Ieft.
Comment by Leslie on July 31, 2024 at 6:05 pm
Jesus said, ” Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone”. “Judge not lest you be judged”. “Came for the outcast and Sinners, ” ” Remove the plank from your own eye, before you point out the splinter in your brothers”
So many of the comments on this article and the UMC, are so judgemental. DID GOD give you that right?? Your exalting yourselves to be equal with God. God alone will judge us, except that it is not your place. Maybe we should look to following Jesus and His teachings. Iwould start with the Sermon on the Mount. You will find it in the Gospel of Matthew.
Comment by JoeR on July 31, 2024 at 6:22 pm
To say the Gideon’s is a stupid ministry is a disgraceful comment.
Just remember the UMC hierarchy applauded the Olympic fiasco. ‘Nuff said!
Comment by Tim on July 31, 2024 at 6:32 pm
I think the anger and cruelty in the comments here vindicate the UMC. All of this would be a lot easier if there was actually any gay people in the Bible. But there isn’t. There’s Sodom and Gomorrah using rape as power, and there’s Paul’s letters telling Christians not to act like pagans when they worship. Acts 15:29 exempts gentiles from all of the purity laws of the Torah other than a list of sins you’d clearly do at the pagan temple including “fornication.”
Now I’m sorry, but when I look at my elderly lesbian neighbors who have been together for decades and plow out the driveways of shut ins when it snows, I don’t see fornicators. When two dads save a kid out of state foster care, I don’t see fornicators. In the eyes of nevous transgender teens who are worried about whether anyone is going to be kind to them today, I don’t see a fornicator. But when you all compare these people to Sodom and Gomorrah and say they’re living a life of sin, I do see you in the Bible. You’re the crowd that’s about to stone the woman in John 8 until Jesus intervenes. You’re the Pharisees in Mark 2 and Matthew 9 questioning why Jesus would care about the people they don’t care about. And you’re the people John is talking about in 1 John 4:20.
“Dear friends, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not show love does not know God, because God is love” (1 John 4:7-8.) Which side are you on?
Comment by MikeB on July 31, 2024 at 8:33 pm
Tim,
There are none righteous no not one. No one here is judging them, they are openly living in sin, and do not believe they needs God’s salvation. Similar theoretical neighbors who are an old straight couple, who rake peoples leaves during fall, are also sinners and need Christ.
It is not love to let someone walk into the fire, it is love to call out to them to avoid the fire.
We are all sinful and in need of Christ.
You do reject the perfection of God, you would rather let a confused youth keep struggling than tell him that God made him perfectly as he is and that God has a perfect plan for him. You would rather let him struggle in a depressed state thinking he is a woman, at odds with both science and the Bible than offer him a ray of hope that he is made by a perfect God who makes no mistakes and is calling him personally to salvation.
Comment by Skipper on August 1, 2024 at 12:42 pm
Tim,
The “New” UMC teaches this is acceptable because they don’t care about you. They know what the Bible teaches, but don’t care. As Mike said, its not love to let someone walk into fire. I believe God will hold those of the UMC responsible for all the harm and misery they are causing people. Test what they teach against the Bible: Leviticus 18:22, Jude 1:7, Romans 1:26-28, Mark 10:6-9, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:8-11, Romans 1:18-32. We all face temptations, I will pray that you can overcome this one. Ask God to help you.
Comment by Tim Mc on August 1, 2024 at 1:55 pm
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
God’s word interferes with our lusts and desires, so we despise it.
Comment by Tom on August 1, 2024 at 3:25 pm
“But once again, it wasn’t us who broke the ties or stormed out of the room: it was the conservatives.”
Right… because the liberals wouldn’t play by the rules… ever. They demanded the 2019 special session to settle the sexuality issue once and for all. And when they didn’t get their way? They went right on flouting the rules they agreed to uphold when taking their vows of ordination.
Comment by Tom on August 1, 2024 at 3:30 pm
Leslie –
I can always tell when someone hasn’t actually read the Word, but only picks and chooses the parts they like because it makes them feel good.
As a counterpoint to “JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED”:
John 7:24
Matthew 18:15-17
2 Timothy 4:2
1 John 4:1
1 Timothy 5:20
Romans 16:17
Luke 17:3
Titus 2:15
Comment by Tim on August 1, 2024 at 6:07 pm
I’ve lived long enough and known enough people that I believe “the perfection of God” includes LGBT people. Why? Because of Matthew 7:15-20. Most LGBT people I know live a life of kindness and compassion, often because they know what it’s like to be treated like dirt.
One of y’all just threw Romans 1:18-32 at me. Just out of curiosity, who was Paul talking to there? What do you think about Romans 2:1-11? You all are reading an English translation of the simple meaning of the text and are pretending it’s God’s direct word. But some scholars think the part in Chapter 1 is Paul mocking the feuding halfs of the Roman church and in Chapter 2 is telling them to stop slandering each other.
I go back to my original point: this would be a lot easier if there were actually LGBT people in the Bible. But there’s not. All we have is condemnation of homosexual behavior in the context of pagan worship and a warning to refrain from fornication. You can throw all the letters of Paul you want at the problem but he’s talking about problematic pagan behavior in a specific context 2000 years ago, not monogamous gay couples today. If someone says they know exactly what Paul meant I’m gonna have to hear them tell me things like: “who was Paul talking to?” “What problem was happening in that church?” “What pagan temple was in that city?” And of course, “do scholars think Paul actually even wrote this?”
Even missing that context, we’re not left with a vacuum on what to do. Christ’s message is clear: there is no one we will meet who is not beloved by God. In the UMC, we’re just trying to live that ideal as we try and do good in the world. The anger and vitriol sent our way hurt, but reflect more on those sending it than on us.
Comment by MikeB on August 1, 2024 at 6:40 pm
Tim,
It has nothing to do with God not loving you, it has everything to do with you not loving God.
If He came to you in person and said Homosexual behavior is rebellion against Me.
What would you say? Would you give up your sin? Would you fall on your face and pray for forgiveness? Would you swallow your pride and repent? Would you call on your acquaintances and tell them that they must change?
It’s a basic question.
Comment by Tim Ware on August 1, 2024 at 9:59 pm
All these apologists and advocates for the LGBTQ stuff can get on here all they want to and declare how they are accepting, loving, affirming, or whatever. But I know from the personal experience of 4 years in a mainline seminary that they are affirming and accepting only of those who agree with them, and that they hate…yes, hate…those who don’t agree with them. They are no more “accepting and inclusive” than the most rank fundamentalists.
Comment by Skipper on August 1, 2024 at 11:15 pm
Tim: You wrote “if there were actually LGBT people the Bible. But there’s not.” They begin in Genesis with Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains. There were very many and had to be destroyed. Sodom was even named for their principle behavior. You can read about the men of Sodom demanding Lot’s the two male visitors for them to have their way with. They turned down the women. Lot worried they would spoil his guests, but need not worry. As these were angels, they could take care of themselves, blinding the men of Sodom, who now groped in the dark still trying to satisfy their lust.
You can read about them in Genesis 19. Genesis 19:4-5 “Before they went to bed, the men of the city of Sodom—everyone from the youngest to the oldest—surrounded the house and called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who arrived tonight? Bring them out to us so that we may have sex with them.’” CEB
2 Peter 2:6 “…he reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is coming to the ungodly;”
Please give this some thought.
Comment by Tim on August 1, 2024 at 11:39 pm
Mike
I’m quite comfortable saying that He has never called on me to affirm that homosexuality is against him. Quite the opposite actually. I grew up in a church that preached sexual conformity, and am one of millions who left it in disgust because in the midst of its unforgiving and inflexible teaching it was committing horrible abuses. But it gave me my biases. In fact now I believe God has put some of the LGBT people I know in my life to question those biases. How can they bear good fruit if they’re a bad tree? This is a basic teaching of Jesus.
Am I supposed to judge their sin when I can’t even understand it? Again, it’s another basic teaching of Jesus that I need to worry about the beam of wood in my own eye rather than that.
Skipper
Go read Ezekiel 16:48-50 before you try and talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. The idea that a people so sinful they use gang-rape to maintain power have anything to do with the LGBT people in our congregations and neighborhoods would be laughable if it wasn’t so offensive.
Comment by MikeB on August 2, 2024 at 1:23 am
Tim,
It’s a very simple question that you are too afraid to answer.
You act like people here are seeking out people who are committing homosexual acts, no, those people are coming here to a theological webpage and openly declaring that their acts are righteous and their sins must be accepted by Christians.
If God called you today and told you that homosexuality was outside of his plan, would you beg his forgiveness? Would you then tell others that God has a better plan for them?
Are you indeed too afraid to answer what you would do if God asked you like Abraham to sacrifice that which seems so precious to you?
Comment by Tim Mc on August 2, 2024 at 7:15 am
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.
“unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (v 29-32).
Fornication definition: Any sex outside the boundaries of marriage. Jesus defined marriage as one man and one woman. Matthew 19.
Comment by Skipper on August 2, 2024 at 10:31 am
Tim:
I read Ezekiel as requested. It says in Ezekiel 16:50: “They became haughty and did detestable things in front of me, and I turned away from them as soon as I saw it.” CEB That’s detestable things, like in the Genesis story of perverted lust at Sodom. Ezekiel names the sins of which the cities of Sodom and Samaria were renowned. Ezekiel is saying Jerusalem has done things even worse. So all were guilty, none were innocent.
A few verses earlier, in Ezekiel 16-21 he says Jerusalem and Judah have been spiritually unfaithful, including fashioning male images (possibly phallic or sexually perverse statues) from gold and silver that God had provided (among other sins he names).
In Genesis 19, the men of Sodom are not trying “to maintain power,” they were trying to satisfy their lust for the two men they saw enter Lot’s house.
Why is it LGBT people try to say they do no wrong, when thieves and murders freely admit what they do is very wrong? They steal cars and other things, but they don’t try to say they are innocent. Could it be the bad influence of denominations like the UMC? Teaching the gay lifestyle is even acceptable for a bishop! No fear of God, this “New UMC.” Listen to the Bible, it has the truth of God’s Word.
Comment by Tim on August 2, 2024 at 3:41 pm
Mike,
As I stated before, God hasn’t called me and asked for that, YOU have. If you feel like you speak for God, I recommend spending some time with Job chapters 38 and 39.
Skipper, you profoundly misunderstand Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin.
Comment by Tim on August 2, 2024 at 3:50 pm
Sorry hit enter too soon
Skipper in all the crimes you list (murder, thievery, what the men of Sodom wanted to do (rape)) there is a victim. Consensual healthy relationships have no victim. The comparison is totally invalid.
Comment by MikeB on August 2, 2024 at 4:42 pm
Tim,
You still refuse the most basic question of would you follow Christ if he asked you to give up that what is most precious to you.
Anyone else asked about that would answer. You know you would not. You withhold from God, because you are indeed false. Deny it all you want, but you answer this as someone who does not believe in the literal God of the Bible. You can claim that you are not being understood, but you are indeed choosing to answer.
In word and in deed, you reject the authority of God over your life. I have not called you to anything, I simply question your willingness to give up that which you hold precious. And you resoundingly respond that you are indeed unwilling.
You are a false snake pretending to believe when you do not. You have already refused God those things that are precious to you. You do not know Him, but you show up here pretending that in anyway you should be listened to as a “Christian example”. As you are not a follower of Jesus Christ, I have no expectations for you but for you to harden your heart and continue to attack the Word of God by deceit, lies and accusations.
Comment by Mattheue B Locklear on August 2, 2024 at 5:05 pm
The relationship within the United Methodist Church and the Gideons has faced challenges long before this year’s General Conference. Despite theological differences, the Gideons’ mission to distribute Bibles complements our efforts as a church. For instance, Pembroke First United Methodist Church has successfully collaborated with the Gideons for Gideon Sunday events. This year we have been asked to participate in Gideon Sunday service and we are planning to do so. General Conference had no effect with our relationship with the Gideons in our community.
The United Methodist Church’s mission is context-specific, and part of our work involves cooperation. While we differ theologically from the Gideons, we share a common goal of spreading God’s word. If we wait for complete agreement on all theological issues, essential kingdom work would stall.
Jesus teaches, “The fields are ready for harvest. Pray to the Lord of the harvest to send workers” (Matthew 9:37-38 NIV). As workers in God’s field, we must be open to collaboration. We endeavor to know our context, understand our God, and commit to sharing the good news despite differences.
In essence, aligning with organizations like the Gideons, even if our theological beliefs diverge, is crucial. We focus on extending God’s message and making disciples of Jesus Christ in our communities and beyond.
Comment by Skipper on August 2, 2024 at 5:32 pm
The Gideon’s International has been very patient with United Methodists over the last 10 years. Now that they have fully approved same-sex marriage and gay clergy, they drew the line on them and it is most appropriate. As J Vernon McGee said, “If they don’t teach what the church teaches, they’re not a church.” Neither are they united or Methodist, for that matter. It is sad, but true. John Wesley would have shaken up the UMC years ago. He would not have let them think one can live an immoral lifestyle and have a good relationship with God. He would have called them to turn back to God.
Comment by Tim on August 3, 2024 at 9:33 am
Mike
I think you need to check on your straw man. He fell down a slippery slope and is now just lashing about spewing insults.
I entered this conversation because the purveyors of this blog spend an extraordinary amount of time writing about how they hope the UMC, objectively and existentially one of the greatest forces for good the world has ever seen, fails. What that would mean for our clothing closets, our soup kitchens, UMCOR, etc doesn’t seem to matter. You act like you’re the only people trying to model your lives after Christ. But living a Christ-like life is not just about hating stuff.
So yes, to answer the question you posed and tried to shift the conversation to, if Jesus appeared to me and told me that I was wrong about everything and that I should be trying to get my LGBT friends to repent, I’d try and do my best. But Jesus WON’T ask me to do that because that’s not Jesus. You can talk about the literal word of God all you want (whilst relying translations to a a different language, and 2000 years of lost context, of course) but you’re not going to find a biblical example of Jesus breaking bread with the oppressed and telling them THEY’RE the problem. Jesus’s entire ministry affirms the people that the holy rollers leave on the side of the Jericho road.
I’ll leave you with one last thought: 2 Corinthians 10:7. “You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do.” I’m sorry y’all feel so wounded that a majority of Methodists have moved on. But could you start planning how you plan to grow your ministries in the GMC or elsewhere instead of continuing to throw rocks at us? In the list of things God’s gonna ask you about at judgement day (Matthew 25) there’s quite a lot about how you show love to the least of these, and not much about how you owned the libs.
Comment by MikeB on August 3, 2024 at 10:50 am
Tim,
But Christ through his word HAS told me and other Christians EXACTLY that, through his word in the Bible. And we are trying to do EXACTLY what you claim you would do in our situations.
You you claim we hate. That is not true, indeed if you read past 2 Corinthians 10, into 11 you will see he talks about the false gospels you preach.
Know this, ALL sins fall short of the glory of God. A homosexual act, while a sin, is not enough to keep someone from God, but what keeps them from God are prideful people like you who tell them that they do not need God’s forgiveness for a specific sin.
Yes, it is as simple as Homosexuality like lying are not part of God’s plan, they are out of his will, and we should try to be in his will, and when we fail he forgives us our trespasses as we pray to him for forgiveness. Then we are brought back into his path no matter how many times we sin, and we as fellow Christians support each other as we all fail in various sins, but have faith in the Promise of our Lord.
You would be free to replace the above with stealing and it stays identical.
But no, you hold fast to the idea that there is no sin in one specific sin, and that forgiveness is not needed. We are not judging you, you are confessing this openly in word and deed. There is no trial when the criminal confesses, no one judges.
That is what like Paul we fight against, the false gospel 2 in chapter 11 that will lead those we love to destruction. There is no path to Christ where we keep our sins without repentance. We warn you because we love you.
Comment by Tim on August 3, 2024 at 12:49 pm
Mike
You know as well as I do that there’s nowhere in the Gospels Christ condemns homosexual people. We can argue over what Paul meant, but this was not what Christ’s ministry was about.
Comment by MikeB on August 3, 2024 at 3:53 pm
Tim,
Every sin is still a sin. The gospel was written for plain rules to life, it’s not something that you can rules lawyer your way out of with God.
It’s absolutely in every way condemned in the plain reading.
You can translate the hobbit into French and complain about how one or another was not totally right and doesn’t capture the spirit.
But it’s the same story.
You want desperately to convince people that it doesn’t. But yes it explicitly does in Greek and in English. No one receiving Paul’s letters could pretend it doesn’t.
You are in the business of misleading, trying to contract language people into hell. It’s a lovely little screwtape business.
You know in your heart that those fake translations are recent and designed to corrupt the plain text. God does not divinely inspired things to be reversed thousand of years later.
You are indeed full of lies, you have tried to worm your way out of your previous words, but instead of thinking of a new way to attack truth, you should wonder why you have to pivot so often when defending something that you want so bad.
You are a sinner, it is up to you to keep running from He who bled for you, or to keep running and sinning.
But your heart will continue to harden, this may be your last moment.
Comment by Tim on August 3, 2024 at 6:07 pm
Mike
Cite me the verse where Jesus condemns homosexuality in any canonical Gospel.
It’s not there. It’s a nice little slight of hand you did there saying that every bit of the Gospel matters and then switching to Paul’s letters, but it’s pretty dishonest.
Now is figuring out sexual morality something Paul is concerned about as he’s guiding these churches on how to survive in the world of 2000 years ago? Yes, and it’s why it’s important we read his letters in context.
I’m sorry. No matter how hard conservative Christians try to make condemning other people the center of their faith, it’s not what Jesus’s ministry was about. He spends no time talking about gay people, a lot of time talking about not judging other people, and most of his time affirming the dignity of all people.
Comment by MikeB on August 3, 2024 at 7:08 pm
Tim,
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
You obviously only learned about Christianity to undermine it. “The Gospel” is indeed the good news, the word of God, both the Old and New Testament are divinely inspired and God breathed. “The Gospels” are the first four books of the New Testament, you can look it up.
You don’t know Jesus any more than someone watching a Quentin Tarantino movie knows about WW2. Jesus again and again calls the sinner to him, to leave everything behind to follow him. Leave your nets, your wealth, your pride.
Luke 5:32
“I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” note: To repentance, something you refuse to do.
Luke 13
“I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Jesus spoke to all sinners, your sin is not special, there is no special dispensation, it is a plain and ordinary sin. Your worst sin is obviously pride by the way, that is holding you back far more than anything else. It’s obvious how you hold the Old Testament in spite.
Ignoring one part of the Bible is not Christianity, it is Marcionism which is heresy.
I do not condemn you or wish you harm, indeed, you continue to spout that garbage, in spite of earlier stating that you would also call homosexuals to repentance if you believed it was a sin. Do you actually believe that or was that yet another lie?
Comment by Tim on August 4, 2024 at 8:35 am
Mike
I repent constantly for my sins which are many. But I don’t have to repent here because I’m not the one presuming that I speak for God.
If you are arguing those verses condemn our LGBT brothers and sisters then your must be arguing against tattoos and shrimp cocktail right? Are you out in farmer’s fields if they’ve planted two crops in one field seizing the crops? Of course not. Because the only part of “the law” conservative Christians care about is the part that confirms their own biases.
Our point is that in Acts 10:15. “What God has made holy, let no man call unclean.” I know many of my LGBT brethren are holy because of the work they do and the fruit they bear (Matthew 7:18.) When God calls them, I believe them. And despite your accusation of my haughtiness, I worry a lot about the beam of wood in my own eye, which makes me realize it’s not my place to judge, as Jesus taught (Luke 6:41.) It isn’t your place either.
Comment by MikeB on August 4, 2024 at 10:07 am
Tim,
What a hypocrite you are, you spout sewage about how traditional Christians are so hateful and then you say well don’t judge me.
False prophets abound we need to try the spirits.
Do you know what unclean is? Somehow you assume unclean means the same as abomination. Unclean was literally not clean. An abomination is also translated as detestable to God. While yes Christ died for your sins which are destestable to him. Why then would you not just continue to do something that is detestable to Him who died for you, but to declare that The unchangeable God no longer has a problem with it. Indeed again this is not about God not loving you but about you not loving God.
I attack your incredible pride because that is the sin holding you back, you say no I cannot admit that the things are do are unpleasing to God, because that would make me feel guilty.
But we are all guilty, we can hold nothing back from God. I promise you the fruit of an unrepentant sinner is noxious to God. There is no good fruit. Whatever you do that is of your own will is just following part of the law.
To repeat as you tend to swerve off course. You are not being judged for your actions, no one here knows you, you are declaring hersey by your own words, your words are false making you a false prophet and I rebuke you for it.
Comment by Leslie on August 4, 2024 at 12:27 pm
Tim
I truly appreciate your words, every one. But Jesus told us, there are many who will harden their hearts to the truth. Jesus was asked, what is the greatest commandment? His reply was the ultimate truth. ” To love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, And to love others” And then he went on to say, ” For all the Laws and the prophets, were fulfilled in these two commandments. They are the greatest commandments spoken from the mouth of God. You keep following Jesus and stay true to the truth, that the Holy Spirit has planted deep in your heart. That is the Kingdom Road. Bless you brother, and know even Jesus walked away from those who had harden their hearts to His Word.
Comment by Henry Kaiser on August 4, 2024 at 1:55 pm
If th UMC is so loving, why did they rob churches of their property and money? The UMC did not pay for the property nor put money in the bank for the local congregation. So please stop the hypocritical preaching of the UMC supposedly loving their neighbor as they love themselves. Or what about those churches in Southern Alabama that were deceived to stay until the General Conference to leave, then were not allowed to. No the UMC in this Methodist pastor’s opinion is nothing more than a money grubbing organization that cuddle anyone that might give them a dime. Let’s see where they stand in two years when the money runs out. They love people so much that they close the doors of churches the people paid for and throw the people out and sell the property. Too bad Wesley isn’t here, if anyone needs a come to Jesus revival, it’s the UMC.
Comment by MikeB on August 4, 2024 at 3:11 pm
“Leslie”
Here we go again, “reconciling” pretend Christians rant about how hated they are, and how they are the “true christians”, and then when they are exposed by their own words as someone who’s heart truly hates the parts of the Bible that exposes their true beliefs, which are some pseudo-christianity that picks and chooses random verses to justify their behaviors and encourage others to dive further into sin.
And then shockingly some other random reconciling pretender shows up to “thank them for their service”. It’s almost like they all went to the same training class run by the same mental midgets.
To love the Lord God with all of your heart mind soul and strength means knowing him and accepting his word. When god says something is an abomination, how can you love him and espouse that as a path to others.
God does not accept you, you accept him. Your claims of loving God are empty, you spit in his face in creating some pseudo-god who accepts you and want’s your happiness in this life. You do not know him, but I know you and your kind.
Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, “Dost thou know me?” “I do know thee, the first-born of Satan.”
Comment by Skipper on August 4, 2024 at 6:15 pm
It’s tragic how the UMC has approved not only immorality, but even perverted immorality. Galations 6:7-8 says “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life”. The UMC is a bad influence on children, youth and well, adults too.
Comment by Tim on August 4, 2024 at 11:52 pm
Thanks Leslie. Your kind words mean the world to me.
At some point, walking away makes sense and this is probably the time. That said, I think that when others use the Bible to justify closing doors, being judgemental, and being cruel, it’s important for us to testify that they’re not talking about Jesus. If any good came of my arguments here, it’s that maybe someone who has been told to hate themselves sees that there are Christians who would, like Christ, love them for who they are and the good they can do. God doesn’t make mistakes. If God created a person LGBT, then it’s our job to affirm God’s creation and treat them with the dignity the scriptures demand we show every person.
This has been a very trying time for the UMC and by extension, the new GMC. Enforcing sexual morality was never what Jesus called us to do (as it doesn’t appear in any gospel.) It’s time to get back to the important work, the Matthew 25 work, the work He did call us to do. I hope all churches, wherever they came out in the schism, can make a positive difference in this world in that regard now that we’re not just fighting each other all the time.
Comment by MikeB on August 5, 2024 at 7:52 am
Tim,
God never created anyone L or G or B or T or any thing of the sort. He created you perfect, as he intended and you made the choices to sin.
It’s on you. Science has again and again shown there is no biological cause of sexuality.
That’s all your pseudo-christian thought.
The hersey of if it doesn’t appear in the 4 Gospels is completely wrong, if that’s how far you need to stray from the entire word of God (yot and tittle) then you are in a new religion that is not Christian.
You are trying to encourage sin in others lives, and then you pretend that your views should be given equal weight with the word of God?
Prideful, you and your enablers like Leslie should seriously consider if Man serves God without reservation or if God serves man without reservation.
False shepards are nothing new. Again and again you resort to peusdo religion, a verse here and there, the gospels except this verse… some strange unscientific lie that your sexuality was from birth.
With what you have left, you have no hope in the God of the Bible. Your hope is in another spirit that speaks only to you… which is dangerous.
Comment by Skipper on August 6, 2024 at 8:19 am
“Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.” I Corinthians 13:6 United Methodism, please go back to the truth on morality.