The United Methodist minister of a large church in Dallas two days ago shared a long Facebook “dream” in which he imagined I choked to death while eating a bologna sandwich and chortling over my denominational mischief. I’m then standing before St. Peter and confronted by my reputed sins, which included working for the CIA, fighting “commies” in the church, and supposedly trying to keep gays out of the church. At the end, St. Peter tells me, “John Wesley wants to talk, and just a warning he’s pissed.”
This minister’s post was overly long, especially for a “dream,” not clever or funny, and tacky. The minister had concluded it by saying he “prayed to rewind the dream tonight and I’ll report to you what happens to you if it comes to me.” But he removed the post last night, so maybe he will not report further about his “dreams.”
The incident recalled another moment involving a United Methodist official and sandwiches. In 2015 Board of Church and Society Director of Civil and Human Rights Bill Mefford tweeted a sarcastic photo of himself among pro-life marchers by the U.S. Capitol with a sign proclaiming: “I March for Sandwiches.” His tweet further explained: “I was inspired by the march for life to march for what I believe in!” His tweet got publicity. Later he apologized and was not much longer on the agency staff.
Both of these Methodist sandwich incidents point to a common lack of seriousness among many United Methodist clergy that may be more generational than theological. When I grew up in the church in the 1970s and 1980s our pastors included conservatives and liberals, but they were generally dignified, taking their office seriously. It’s hard to picture any of them performing sandwich incidents. The contemporary lack of seriousness is likely not confined to Methodist clergy.
This Dallas minister dreaming about my death was upset about my article in The Wall Street Journal regarding United Methodism’s ongoing division over sexuality and theology. He mocked my traditionalist views even though he was himself until recent years a traditionalist. He even wrote an admiring biography of the late Bill Hinson, the longtime Houston pastor who championed traditionalism and advocated United Methodist division in 2004.
The “dream” about my death by a United Methodist minister who identifies as not progressive but “centrist” also does not bode well for the toleration that “centrists” claim will protect traditionalists when United Methodism officially liberalizes its sexual teachings. If traditional views are as intrinsically hateful as “centrists,” not to mention progressives claim, then traditionalists of course should not be tolerated in the church any more than racists. And of course, they will not be.
Many traditionalists are now exiting United Methodism with the realization that the declining denomination is unfixable. This mass exit will eventually allow “centrists” and progressives to overturn United Methodism’s traditional teachings about marriage. This prospect should fill clergy like this dreaming Dallas minister with joy, thanksgiving and anticipation. Instead he and many kindred clergy are angry and resentful. Apparently impending victory, after 50 years, is not as sweet as imagined.
“Centrist” and progressive clergy resent the presence of traditionalists in the church and they resent their departure. They know that, based in the example of other fast declining liberalized Mainline Protestant denominations, that United Methodism’s over half century of decline not only will continue indefinitely but accelerate. They know that the church’s vast bureaucracy, built in the 1960s for a USA denomination of 11 million, cannot be supported by the current church of 6 million, and certainly not by the soon to be church of 3 or 4 million if not lower.
The United Methodist era of million dollar agencies, guaranteed jobs for clergy, scores of bishops and tens of thousands of churches, unaccountable seminaries, under a command and control structure, is ending. What will come next? Nobody knows but it will be difficult. The profits from the sale of thousands of closed churches are the only bright light for future United Methodism.
What will St. Peter and John Wesley say about the demise of United Methodism when, by God’s grace, we meet them? All of us have failed in many ways. But clergy who used their office to mock traditionalists with “dreams” or signs about sandwiches likely won’t draw many smiles of approval.
Comment by Joe M on August 26, 2022 at 12:27 pm
The split is long overdue. Our UMC churches have for way too long been able to blur theological divides that are dangerously real using the umbrella of denominationalism.
Comment by Matt Ayars on August 26, 2022 at 2:12 pm
God bless you, Mark Tooley. You’re a good man. THANK YOU for what you do.
Comment by Reynolds on August 26, 2022 at 2:55 pm
Mark,
I guess it took you over two years to see them for what they are. The fighting and lawsuit will be long and expensive. Welcome to the real world
Comment by David S. on August 26, 2022 at 2:57 pm
“They know that the church’s vast bureaucracy, built in the 1960s for a USA denomination of 11 million, cannot be supported by the current church of 6 million, and certainly not by the soon to be church of 3 or 4 million if not lower.”
All that needs to be done is consider the following:
2012 – TEC votes to sell the denominational headquarters due to the upkeep (which demonstrates the folly of the then Presiding Bishop’s scorched earth policy towards departing parishes and dioceses).
2013 – PC(USA) began what is turning into (in true Presbyterian fashion, second only to perhaps the Methodists of deliberating a matter to death) of downsizing and reducing position (2013) and reorganizing the church bureaucracy (as of the 2022 GA, it seems to be continuing four to five years after issuance of the Way Forward Commission’s report).
2021 – UCC sells its denominational headquarters
2022 – After remodeling Presbyterian Center in order to have sufficient conference space to host a hybrid GA, the PC(USA) decided to reach out to the local area to see if there is interest using the conference center space as an alternative to other events space. (Presumably, this will also provide additional revenue to offset a small portion of the operating costs.)
To my knowledge, aside from UMC, the only mainline denomination that seems not to have touched its bureaucracy and headquarters (or at least reported doing so) is the ELCA. But given the quiet departure of congregations – due to no trust provision to fight over – according to a Lutheran acquaintance, it is probably only a matter of time before that denomination has to do something major as well.
Comment by Jeffrey Walton on August 26, 2022 at 4:02 pm
David, a minor quibble: the Episcopal Church House of Deputies voted for the church to examine the possibility of a sale of the national church headquarters at 815 Second Avenue, this was not adopted by the House of Bishops and did not clear the Episcopal General Convention. Last I checked, one floor of the building was leased to the Haitian consulate, and maybe one other tenant, but it’s still owned by the denomination. Yes, it’s a financial sinkhole to maintain, but the staff and several bishops successfully argued that Manhattan real estate only goes up in value long-term.
Comment by Mary Banks on August 26, 2022 at 3:36 pm
I especially liked the line about progressives resent Traditionalist in the church and they resent them leaving. United Methodism Is a dying breed. Those congregations that want out and vote to do so, should be able to withdraw lock stock and barrel. Each local congregation have built and paid for their property and buildings.. It’s immoral that they want to take it.
Comment by Anthony on August 26, 2022 at 3:50 pm
The musicians of the RMS Titanic all perished when the ship sank in 1912. They played music, intending to calm the passengers, for as long as they possibly could, and all went down with the ship.
Comment by C.A. Buster on August 26, 2022 at 7:59 pm
Actually, it’s quite possible that they may not have to worry about seeing smiles of approval from St. Peter and John Wesley. First, you gotta be, by God’s grace, in His domain, and that is a situation to not assume so lightly, no matter your position in any religious institution.
Comment by Kim French on August 26, 2022 at 9:12 pm
I was extremely disappointed by his post..Of all the church leaders, I never thought he would have done something so mean spirited. Yes, both sides do it !!
We all did it in 1st grade …….. grow up and act like a follower of Christ. The people that don’t know him are thinking hey, I don’t have to change my ways at all. I can still treat people anyway and get a UMC hat.
My church is small, we are just trying to make disciples. I am so disappointed in the denomination I have grown to love the last 40 years. The COB is wrong on several levels.
General Conference should have been held.
We are imploding from within. I don’t care if it’s progressive or conservative side this has gone on too long. Let the people that want to leave, leave. Help them figure out the financing and let them go. As for retired clergy, get creative we all know enough money has been spent and will be spent in legal battles to go a long way to help clergy.
People are leaving the denomination and they aren’t all writing about it on FB.
Can you hear the frustration?
God help us.
Comment by Gary Bebop on August 26, 2022 at 10:37 pm
Thanks for posting a reply to a disreputable institutional varlet. The conflict has entered the stage of vicious “border war” guerilla tactics, and louts are doing this dirty work. The situation seems to be fluid, ambiguous, confounding. What wisdom can you offer for an anxious and baffled church?
Comment by Jeff on August 27, 2022 at 5:24 am
Mark,
I myself have attacked you vigorously “from the right” and will likely continue to do so as long as you and I remain misaligned as to the proper direction of the Ecclesia in and for the Kingdom of GOD.
However IMO Copeland’s scurrilous, ridiculous and unwarranted attack on you is baloney. And baloney is not a play on his choice of your sandwich meat — you would rightfully not permit the printing of the word that better describes his drivel.
Thank you and God bless you for taking the high road and defending yourself with “grace, seasoned as it were with salt”. You set a good example.
Blessings
Jeff
Comment by Wes Griffin on August 27, 2022 at 6:22 am
Mark, spot on. I joined the UMC as clergy 37 years ago. The respect across the lines was admirable. Today it is non-existent. As a traditionalist and advocate for clergy, laity, and churches who want to be traditional, I look forward to the future. That future will not be with the UMC whose dysfunction is in full display. I see a very compelling future for those who leave the UMC and join a new movement!
Comment by David on August 27, 2022 at 8:46 am
The 1963 Episcopal Center at 815 Second Ave, NYC, has been sublet in part for years. The building has 137.784 SF on 11 floors. The American Guild of Organists had their national headquarters here at one time.
Comment by David Mazepink on August 27, 2022 at 9:29 am
It actually started in the ‘60’s. It was at a Methodist Church in Sunnyvale, when as a Teen, I was asked to play a solo by one of my Teachers who was a member. I choose “Create In Me A Clean Heart, Oh God”. I printed out the words and passed them around the pews before church started (I was playing a very somber sounding trumpet – I was 15). I had grown up in a Baptist Church, though all my friends went to this church, so I tagged along (and I wanted to NOT turn down my English teacher!( The First Service was the first time I had received applause for playing in church! There’s a difference between Baptist and Methodist! But, between services, folks wanted to meet me and I played a few “church songs” and then wandered into the courtyard. There, was a wine and cheese bar. Now remember, this was before 2nd service! The fundamentals of Christianity, are embedded in one taking on a “new life”. One pleasing to the Lord. It begins with knowing we are created and for the purpose of making the choice that will separate us from those who chose wrong. Then life is a matter of choosing again – every aware moment – and as Christ said in the lengthy epistle He dictated to John in Rev 3 & 4, we must as Believers, Overcome the sins of our lives as those sins are paid for too. We are then to do 2 things: win souls and make disciples. We lead by example is a misnomer. We lead by allowing the Holy Spirit. Choices. One thing the Baptist taught me: live as though Christ is right there with you. Oh wait – He is!
Comment by John Smith on August 27, 2022 at 3:53 pm
I’m waiting for the calls to be kind as the UMC collapses and we should not feel joy at its demise. That assumes, however, that the UMC is truly christian. Perhaps it is past time for the burden makers to be shut down.
Comment by JoeR on August 28, 2022 at 7:11 am
“ The United Methodist era of million dollar agencies, guaranteed jobs for clergy, scores of bishops and tens of thousands of churches, unaccountable seminaries, under a command and control structure, is ending.”
Long over due! Please May the last UMC member please turn out the lights and lock the door. Until then the congregation I attend will be in Ky mucking houses, feeding the poor, helping the homeless and hearing preaching from God’s Holy Scripture without liberal commentary.
Comment by Robert Sparkman on August 28, 2022 at 8:31 am
Mark, what a great response. Great work.
Comment by George on August 28, 2022 at 12:35 pm
The fight, and it is a FIGHT, is driven by money and power. Secular government is forever growing. Church government is no different. We have allowed the liberals who are hungry for advancement to become the bishops. They eat from the same slop jar as the Adam Hamiltons. They are all for the mega-churches with high end playgrounds and coffee bars.
Those things may be nice but the real reason for the Church is all but forgotten. Doing what is popular with the secular society comes first and they throw barbs and insults at those who resist. Scripture and the discipline doesn’t stand in their way. This split is the work of evil and we opened the door for it to enter. So I say, let’s dust off our sandals and move on down the road. For the rest, go drink your latte.
Comment by Walt Pryor on August 30, 2022 at 11:23 am
The issue of embracing homosexuality started in the 70s. I
I recall a large church in Fresno that wanted out due to the church allowing homosexuals. That church had to go to court and fight for its own property. I do not know the outcome of that court case.
So this idea that we can turn our back on God’s word goes back a long, long, way.
God is winnowing the wheat from the chaff in my opinion.
We built a new Social a few years ago. We had to sign it over to the Methodist church. I told the pastor that if we ever wanted out they would make us buy back our own property. We would have to pay double.
The pastor told me. in an angry way. “This property is held in trust!”
America legalizing homosexuality has changed the world! The world has become more decadent. The world has less honesty, and less, integrity.
The rainbow flag of homosexuality is the flag under which the False Christ is coming.
The American Legacy News and Democrats have opened this door to evil.
Comment by Jeff on August 30, 2022 at 4:24 pm
Walt,
>> The American Legacy News and Democrats have opened this door to evil.
Yes, and overwhelmingly, the American “mainstream church” including WCA/GMC have neither the discernment to recognize this evil nor the courage to speak out and expose it.
ref Ephesians 5, first 21 vv
Blessings!
Comment by Pat on September 1, 2022 at 7:54 am
Mark, as a former Methodist, I am grateful for your attempts and other traditional church leaders, to reconcile the church split in a Christ like manner. Most of all, as a former church member, I am grateful for this website where I, as a church member, could become informed as to what the real intent of the current USA Methodist church leadership intended all along. There are many USA Methodist church members being left in the dark as part of the plot to keep churches in the post UMC split, that would vote to leave the church. Power, control and money are just three of the temptations that satan has used to turn the current UMC leadership against Christ’s church. Christ is no longer head of the USA Methodist church or those Methodist Universities responsible for preparing church leaders for the mission John Wesley proclaimed for the Methodist church. This attack on you is another badge of honor you can wear as satan’s minions come out in force to close the door on the church. Thank you for demonstrating what real grace under fire is supposed to be!