Disputed "Bishop" Remains Defiant After Hearing in Top Methodist Court

Disputed “bishop” Dr. Karen Oliveto remains defiant after proceedings in United Methodism’s top ecclesiastical court. The Judicial Council of the United Methodist Church (UMC) heard oral arguments on Tuesday about whether they should issue a declaratory decision effectively invalidating the election and consecration of the disputed “bishop” over the Mountain Sky Episcopal Area within the Western Jurisdiction.

Oliveto spoke during a press conference hosted by the Western Jurisdiction following the Judicial Council hearing. She defended her contested episcopacy, reasserted her perceived call to ministry by God, and insisted more LGBTQ clergy would be called serve in the UMC.

“What is fascinating about today’s hearing is that no one questioned the gifts and graces I possess for ordained ministry and specifically for the episcopacy,” Oliveto said. “And no one has looked at my work and said my abilities for the task are lacking.”

She then cited John 15:16 in reference to her own ministry:

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.”

“This is a pivotal moment in the life of the United Methodist Church as the Judicial Council deliberates on those whom God has called to bear fruit in the world, specifically the role gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersex people have in ordained ministry,” she continued.

“God has and will continue to call faithful United Methodists who happen to be LGBTQI to serve their church,” she asserted.

The disputed “bishop” later predicted that various Boards of Ordained Ministry would confirm more LGBTQ clergy for ministry, and projected that God would call additional LGBTQ people as bishops. Furthermore, she claimed: “I am not the first gay bishop, and I will not be the last.”

Bishop Elaine Stanovsky, who oversees the Greater Northwest Area of the UMC, also spoke. Offering remarks at the beginning of the press conference, she reiterated arguments made by Rocky Mountain Annual Conference Chancellor Richard A. Marsh during the hearing. She insisted that UMC’s polity gives the Western Jurisdictional Conference the constitutional right to elect their own bishops without outside interference from other jurisdictions or denominational bodies like the Judicial Council.

Bishop Elaine Stanovsky Press Conference — Bishop Elaine Stanovsky speaks during a press conference following the Judicial Council’s hearing regarding the election of disputed “bishop” Karen Oliveto. (Photo Credit: Mike DuBose / UMNS)

“The autonomy of jurisdictions to elect their own bishops is at the heart of our unity in diversity,” Stanovsky said.

Stanovsky lauded the “huge majority” of delegates in the Western Jurisdictional Conference that elected Oliveto in July 2016 by a margin of 88 to 0. “We celebrate her election as a gift of the Holy Spirit to the whole church,” Stanovsky said.

She also expressed the unanimous support for Oliveto within the Western Jurisdiction’s College of Bishops. “Every bishop in the Western Jurisdiction, active and retired, claims Bishop Oliveto as an esteemed colleague, and we recognize God at work in her life, in her marriage to Robin, and through her ministry as bishop,” Stanovksy asserted.

Before inviting Oliveto the podium, Stanovksy made an apparent allusion to Jesus Christ’s self-referential statement about his own Messianic ministry from Luke 19:40 to speak about Oliveto. Stanovsky noted that Oliveto had remained silent during the Judicial Council proceedings, but claimed “the very stones would cry out if we fail to hear her [Oliveto’s] voice” during the press conference.

The Reconciling Ministries Network (RMN) streamed the Western Jurisdiction’s press conference via Facebook Live. The video is embedded below.

Post oral hearing press conference hosted by Western Jurisdiction of The UMC. #nosuchlaw #calledOUT

Posted by Reconciling Ministries Network on Tuesday, April 25, 2017

Comment by Nutstuyu on April 26, 2017 at 2:58 pm

because the time will come when people will not ·listen to [put up with; endure] the ·true [sound; healthy] teaching but will ·find many more [gather around themselves; accumulate] teachers who ·please them [meet their needs/desires] by saying the things ·they want to hear [their ears itch for]
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:49 pm

Okay, I have no idea if I agree or disagree with you, but you win the intertubewebs for best or at least most excessive use of brackets.
Comment by pasro on April 28, 2017 at 1:26 am

Why, for posting a straight quote from The Expanded Bible? That translation (Thos. Nelson) simply includes the bracketed text to provide additional, nuanced meanings to the text.
Comment by mnhb212 on April 26, 2017 at 3:13 pm

Of course there no dissenting votes – they were in the Western Jurisdiction. Let them come to almost any other Jurisdiction and see how the vote goes.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:33 pm

Glad you’re holier than us. Mazeltov!

Or…maybe…we have a better sense of the movements of the Spirit than you?

Or, maybe, election of bishops and UMC politics are a flawed human construct that reflects local and cultural bias and the reality of a more inclusive and progressive western jurisdiction is at odds with a tradition-oriented SE or SC jurisdiction rooted in histories of slavery and bias.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:25 pm

You have all the stereotypes down pat.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 26, 2017 at 3:43 pm

What a fraud. Her “gifts and graces” are made-up by her and her fellow wolves. She is deliberately violating the Bible and the Book of Discipline and is just sad that someone is trying to enforce the rules.
Comment by Gary Ritner on April 26, 2017 at 11:17 pm

Bless your heart, as they say in the South when they hear something despicable, full of hatred and ignorance …
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 27, 2017 at 10:37 am

Thanks for the concession speech. You obviously have no arguments, so you throw out the childish “hatred and ignorance” sound bite. What a pathetic and typical “Christian” Leftist!

The truth sound like hate to those that hate the truth. And the “Christian” Left hates the truth.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:47 pm

Yay! More name calling for someone hiding behind a username that keeps them private. And your wordplay is so cute.

Sorry, darling, I’m fine with hating bigotry, hate, bias, prejudice. Fifty years ago you would have been turning the dogs loose on our African-American siblings, and big parts of the UMC (and DEFINITELY the IRD Gestapo) would have cheered you on. You’re on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of faith. Grateful for “christian” fascists like you to highlight what faithful, gospel-living Christians can be. You keep doing your hate and good luck explaining it at the pearly gates or whatever you’re anticipating.

Maybe IRD can issue a merit badge for bigotry. That would be about on par.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:42 am

And another fact-free, logic-free personal attack. Predictable. The race-baiting “Christian” Left is the one who hates blacks and wants them safely on their plantations. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/440412/democrats-hurt-blacks-low-expectations

And you all support abortions to the child’s first breath, which kill blacks at a rate 3 times that of whites — the ultimate racism and hatred! And you want that rate higher with taxpayer-funding. http://wp.me/p5O8SK-GH

You are Molech-worshiping ghouls.
Comment by Child of God on April 28, 2017 at 7:51 pm

Thank you Eternity Matters. I blocked “Dave”. I was tired of readying his hateful statements that were not based on Scripture, but ‘Liberal Progressive’ talking points. Thx.
Comment by DaveWright on April 28, 2017 at 7:52 pm

OOOOOH. Now that’s a good one. Molech-worshipping ghoul. I’d been looking for a good twitter handle.

And, yes, the attacks are personal, because this article and this discussion board are personal and causing harm to God’s people on the margins. I’m done playing nice.

Good response, btw, to my pointing out where much of the church (especially in the SCJ and SEJ) stood in the 60s by switching the topic to abortion (WTF?). Derailing won’t work, dearie. This is about how the current heterosexism and bigotry of my denomination is a contemporary extension of its historic bigotry and hate.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 9:01 am

Friendly reminder to everyone: Disqus has a great feature where you can block people so you don’t see their comments. So, hypothetically, if a Bible-hating, God-mocking troll named Dave kept posting silly sound bites promoting LGBTQX perversions, you can click on his name then click on the three dots next to his name and select the block option. Gone for good!

Thanks, Disqus!
Comment by MarcoPolo on April 28, 2017 at 5:27 pm

If denying individuals their right to express their opinion is favorable to those who claim to know the high-ground, then please block everyone who doesn’t fit YOUR version of Christianity, and please, include ME!
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 6:20 pm

Straw man argument. I’m just using that feature to ignore trolls. You should really be upset at the wicked Leftists suppressing free speech around the country.
Comment by Child of God on April 28, 2017 at 7:52 pm

Done.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 29, 2017 at 8:37 am

P.S. I didn’t deny him anything. He still has his rights to express his anti-Christ “Christian” Left talking points all he likes. No violence from, nothing I’m doing to stop him. I’m just exercising my right not to have to listen to him. What a concept — and how unsurprising that you missed those points.
Comment by RioLion on April 27, 2017 at 4:31 pm

Gary – what Christians really hate is what God also hates. Ever think about that? doubtful! Watch those that hate the teachings of the Bible howl when Christians leave for more Biblical denominations. A lot of big $$$$ will also be gone!
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:44 pm

Buh by. You enjoy your bigotry and hate. Glad your God hates. My God hates too, They despise your festivals, your celebrations that say everything is okay while you trample on the downtrodden and needy. They see you selling the oppressed for silver. Glad you enjoy your fascist $$$$. Please take them with you. “My G-d isn’t short of cash, mister.”
Comment by RioLion on April 28, 2017 at 6:16 am

If the Bible is not your guide than all you have is something of your own design. And yes, you will see the $$$ leave when Christians who listen to God leave. Yes, there are those that will call good evil and evil good. You will reap what you sow and then realize what you are doing too late. Ever think about what your defense will be when you stand before the Judge of this creation? Doubtful!!
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:05 pm

Who is your God?
Comment by DaveWright on April 28, 2017 at 7:49 pm

The One who Is. The One whose prophets spoke with rage when they saw the powers of their day oppressing those on the margins. Y’all have fun building a god out of judgment and bigotry.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 8:25 pm

What book did you find that in? The Bible is all about judgment, and no bigotry, just the Word of God. Right and wrong. Good and bad. The Ten Commandments, not the ten suggestions. Try reading it and pray for God to help you understand.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 26, 2017 at 3:51 pm

“She also expressed the unanimous support for Oliveto within the Western Jurisdiction’s College of Bishops”

Wolves supporting wolves. Shocking.

“The disputed “bishop” later predicted that various Boards of Ordained Ministry would confirm more LGBTQ clergy for ministry, and projected that God would call additional LGBTQ people as bishops. Furthermore, she claimed: “I am not the first gay bishop, and I will not be the last.””

That is sad but true. Satan is most persistent. But he’s still Satan.
Comment by Dana Gilmour on April 26, 2017 at 5:29 pm

Satan been very effective in destroying the PCUSA. Sad how destructive he has been to once great denominations.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:48 pm

Funny, the PCUSA church I attend many weeks is one of the fastest growing churches in my town. And they are on the front edge of inclusion, not the foot-dragging haters.
Comment by Jim Britt on April 28, 2017 at 10:49 am

Satan is easier to follow, no rules!
Comment by DaveWright on April 28, 2017 at 7:47 pm

Yeah, those Presbys with their “decently and in order” stuff are just a bunch of wild antinomians…
Comment by Jim Britt on April 28, 2017 at 10:50 am

What’s next, electing proud pedophiles?
Comment by MarcoPolo on April 28, 2017 at 5:37 pm

Conflating Statutory criminal code such as the crime of Pedophilia with the natural state of being human, ie: LGBTQ, is just ignorant!

And how does being proud make any difference?
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:22 pm

The natural state of being human is evil. And, we have to read the Bible to figure out how to live according to God’s will and not our own because we make BAD decisions. If you start with Genesis, you will find that God wants one man and one woman to marry, and that’s it. No Adam with Adam and no Eve with Eve stuff. Anything else is just ignorant.
Comment by MarcoPolo on April 30, 2017 at 4:53 pm

Clearly, people will believe anything. Especially if it’s sanctioned by organized religion.
I know plenty of human beings who do not ascribe to any religion, yet they are NOT evil.
I suspect that you also, are NOT evil?

The question to you is: Would your character be any less pure, if you were of NO religion?
Morality does not require a religion to exist, but religion should always be morally sound!

I’m very much in agreement with you regarding humans making BAD decisions. Responsibility for that may rest on humans just being stupid, greedy, selfish, egotistical, self absorbed, angry, mean, or just plain indifferent.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 7:21 pm

Yes, my character would be less pure, except I’ve never heard of a pure character, just good or bad character or something in between. People become wise by making better and better decisions regarding good and evil as they grow older, but they need something to base their decisions on. Atheists in the Western world used to believe in a conscience and believed in the importance of studying the Bible in order to understand morals and values and somehow attain them, now they just want to get rid of such things..So what are your morals and values? Do you have strength of character when it comes to your conduct?
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 8:32 am

There are numerous religious texts available to espouse morality.
The Bible being just one. But they also have agendas attached to them.

I cannot dispute that there may have been Atheists who reference these religious texts, as there are as many reasons to peruse such literature, ie: Historical, Cultural, Inspirational, etc… but morality can be attained without such texts, since EMPATHY is the vital component for humans to understand, for being moral.

I consider myself a Pantheist (seeing God in EVERYTHING, no organization attached to it), so I question those who insist that THEIR religion be the ultimate determiner of how Life on Earth is to be lived by EVERYONE!

Cultural mores are as vastly different as there are Countries on the planet. Surely, moral conduct and acceptable values reveal as great a diversity for that same reason alone. Just think of how differently a Mennonite vs Amish view their conduct and social constrictions. They are similar, yet different! Orthodox vs Reformed…etc. There is room for everybody! No one need demean another…just get along!

Namaste’
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 10:51 am

Name the religious texts that espouse morality…You live in a world affected by Christianity for 2 thousand years and some of the morality has rubbed off on you. And you’ve gotten some of it by osmosis living in a Christian country. What are your morals? What are the morals in the other religious texts?
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 12:40 pm

Love, Compassion, Charity, etc. are the tenets of most of the world’s hundreds of past and present religions.
Why is it that so many Christians think they are the only ones with morality “on their side”?

If you wish to feel superior about “your God”, have at it. This planet has had numerous religions, and yes, some will prove over time to be “better” than others, but lest ye forget, that PRIDE is also considered a sin in the Christian sect.

I agree, any religion that has dominated a culture for as many years as Christianity has, will undoubtedly influence people in ways that relate to that particular religion. That doesn’t mean that that religion should be adopted as “Thee One”!

“Christian country”….REALLY?
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 1:21 pm

The world’s religions have had horrible rituals associated with them. The Hindis only officially banned widow immolation in the 1950s. The Bible is the only book with good and evil laid out. That’s why we think we have morality on our side. And pride is the belief that an individual or an entity, such a church can come up with an interpretation of the Bible superior to what is obviously written in it. Pride is putting yourself before God. We used to have a Christian country, according even to the Marxists who have invaded it. People like those in the Frankfurt School, Herbert Marcuse, Eric Fromm and others, plus Abraham Maslow. Their influence lives on in the public schools and private institutions they started. The self-actualization movement and the culture wars have had an enormous influence. You follow them. It’s not surprising as the government promotes your post-modern beliefs and not Christianity. It’s done in order to get rid of real freedom. They say so.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 6:27 pm

You are quite right, the world’s religions truly HAVE had horrible rituals over the millennia, but that doesn’t let Christianity off the proverbial hook either. Remember the Crusades?

As for the relevance of Christianity being any more moral than any other current religion, I think you’ll agree that depends upon personal preferences and prejudices. Ask most any Jewish person, and they’ll say Judaism is the BEST! Same for Christians and Muslims, they will generally always prefer “their own” religion over another one.

Of course, being raised in a particular religion will have strong influence as well. In spite of my having been raised in the Methodist Church, I am no longer a member of that particular denomination. I can appreciate what Methodism had to offer, but the whole dogma of Organized Religion (capital ‘O’ and ‘R’) is (for lack of better word), a ruse, in my humble opinion.

Science can be a religion to some. Then there is the off-shoot of the Gaia Theory. A natural approach to the Natural world and it’s all encompassing “system” of Life on our precious planet. Now THAT has merit! But Science to some religious folk is considered heresy…Go Figure!

“Real Freedom”, your words, is another unfounded fear that you need not worry about losing. Unless our Government goes bad!
Because freedom is what EVERYBODY of every mindset/religion prefers. There is little to no chance of free thinkers like those you mentioned, ever taking away the right of every American citizen to pursue the American dream. Hallelujah!

I am very grateful to you, for your civility and even temper regarding this topic. Not everybody is as considerate as you…. Thank you!

May you continue in good health!
Namaste’
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 7:04 pm

Defending the Christians in the M.E. and in your own lands were not rituals, now were they? Morals are not an opinion. And, I’ve heard and read pretty much all you have said here. So, I’m happy to see you are trolling on to some other site. Adios.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 7:17 pm

I don’t completely understand what you mean in your first sentence, but I trust you might not enjoy engaging with people other than Christians.

I wish you good health and manageable abundance!
Namaste’,
MarcoPolo (Not a troll)
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 7:22 pm

Well let me explain. Christians were in the Middle East and all over North Africa before the Muslims invaded those lands and took them over. Then the Christians in Europe went to the Middle East to take the lands back.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 8:28 pm

Thank you for the clarification.
So, are you saying that the Crusades were a GOOD thing?
Given that the Bible reports Jesus having said: “Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel”….

Why would it seem reasonable to anyone with mutual respect for their fellow man, to accept a religion from afar? In other words, why is it that Christians feel compelled to convert a stranger to Christianity? Especially if the other person already has a religion!

To me, that smacks of arrogance and imposition!
Conquest was once quite a regular activity, but thankfully today, we have that kind of behavior somewhat in check.
Thank God, wherever She is!

As I wished for you before, enjoy your life in Christ, and understand that there are at least as many people of different religions that deserve mutual respect from you AND me!

Peace sister!
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 8:55 pm

You really have a problem with words. My dictionary definition of the crusades: Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Moslems. Why would I have a problem with that? The affect of it on the world today has been positive. As for the rest of your silliness, you can’t even say goodbye and mean it.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 2, 2017 at 10:08 am

I cannot help you to understand the English language if you cannot understand courtesy when it is expressed.

Since you and some Christians still believe in conquest for Christ (Sheesh!) then there truly is NO hope for humanity’s coexistence with the religious zealots.

You can easily avoid me and other level-headed Leftists by not contributing to the craziness of the world since the Trumpster infiltrated our great nation. Good luck sister!
Comment by Lee Jensen on May 1, 2017 at 5:31 pm

Marco – it all depends upon what you view as evil! And yes, one can be very moral in behavior but when standing before Christ at the Judgment, they will be told ‘depart from me, I never knew you”. Our belief is one of a relationship with the risen Lord and if you do not have that relationship, you really have nothing in the life to come.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 6:49 pm

If I may presume, I think we might both agree on what is evil. Murder, Rape, et al.
Generally, it’s only the things that humans do to one another that can be described as evil. Certainly not a character flaw in the (wild) animal kingdom, but we might advance ourselves if we took some behavioral tips from them?

Judgement day before Christ pertains to Christians.
For instance, how is it logical for a Muslim to be concerned about judgement before Christ, when Christ is not part of their belief system? Same for all the other religions!

I, personally, think it’s arrogant to expect another existence after this one. I expect that when I die, it will simply be “Lights OUT!” And since no one has proven it either way, I’m comfortable dealing with that when the time comes, thank you very much!

Don’t think that those of differing religions are not also seeking the same thing as you. Reverent sincerity, gracious giving, compassionate dealings and bountiful charity. All things honorable and humble…THAT’S what matters in a civil society. I think you’ll agree?

I do no harm, I help everybody who needs help, and I make morally sound judgements regarding the balance of what is considered civil, sane and right!

I sincerely DO appreciate exchanges on this subject with ALL people of EVERY faith, and I thank you for your cogent responses.
Comment by Lee Jensen on May 1, 2017 at 8:15 am

In short one reaps what one sows. If one sows to the flesh than one will reap to the flesh and the results is not always desirable. I predict as time goes on, there will be more deadly diseases that the sexual indiscreet will have to bear- maybe a super AIDS bug.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 10:31 am

Well put.
Comment by johnschuh on April 28, 2017 at 8:14 pm

Gay polemicists manage to convince the pubic of two contradictory things: 1) that it is a matter of choice; 2), it is an in born attribute. The first appeals to our society’s delight in romantic love; the second to to our obsession with sexual climax as an end in itself.
Comment by DaveWright on April 28, 2017 at 7:47 pm

Thus revealing an utter lack of knowledge about the difference between pedophelia and identifying as LGBTQ+. Most pedophiles are straight white men. Almost universally. You’ve just moved from a bigoted theological perspective to plain out factless heterosexism. You get a cookie!
Comment by Idecidemyfate77 on April 28, 2017 at 9:50 pm

actually, I don’t think you can legitimately call a pedophile a “straight white male” at all. Much like someone that likes the same sex in adults, pedophiles do not normally like opposite sex-they prefer same sex. Making them gay men that prefer little boys. In the few cases where it’s sex with little girls, well, that’s not “straight” either. It’s perverted and of satan, just like homosexuality is.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 10:06 pm

While the pedophile may very well be someone that is straight, I believe you will find that the homosexual is far more likely to be a child abuser than those that come from a straight lifestyle.
Comment by MarcoPolo on April 30, 2017 at 5:03 pm

PLEASE present facts to back that (inaccurate) assumption?
The burden of proof rest upon you to defend your claim.
The term “Child Abuse” covers a plethora of possible descriptions. None are excusable, or tolerable. Thus there are existing laws to ensure the safety of our treasured progeny.
Some of whom, will also be Gay or Lesbian while growing up without ever having experienced any abuse.
Being LGBTQ is a natural human trait! Just as natural as Left-Handedness, period!
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 30, 2017 at 10:02 pm

Suggest that you may want to reference the state websites that will inform you where those that have committed child abuse live. There are hundreds.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 7:49 am

Thank you. But is the geographic location of those cretins pertinent for the sake of the conversation?
My defense of homosexuals has no parallel to the criminality of pedophiles. The former is just another fellow brethren, the latter, is a despised criminal.

There are clear distinctions, and too often, unknowingly, people will conflate the two, for lack of familiarity.

Do any of your LGBTQ family members or friends possess the propensity for pedophilia?
NONE of mine do!

Thanks for your suggestion.
Comment by Lee Jensen on May 1, 2017 at 8:10 am

In any case, the gay person is one that has not been able to discipline himself to the point that the mind overrules the desires of the body. And like the child who explores his sexuality, has not been able to mature to the point that he can fully control his sexuality.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 8:56 am

“Controlling” one’s sexuality is NOT the condition or behavior that distinguishes Gay from Straight.

Please ask your wife’s son to discuss some of the distinctions.

At the risk of sounding like an Anthropologist, our common ancestors, the Bonobos primate extol the virtues of sexual activity, and, as has been proven, they manage their societal structure without hazards of Religious conformity and contortion.

Yes, I equate our relationship among our primate brethren to be on par with the character of Humans. After all, we ARE all here together!
Comment by Lee Jensen on May 1, 2017 at 5:52 pm

I disagree with your view that we must be like the various primates that extol their sexuality.

The main thrust of most respectable religions is to channel our behavior in such a way as to live in harmony with each other and that would entail a moral code. As Christians we are told that love of neighbor is the fulfillment of the law but love of neighbor does not mean love of a morality that is destructive to relationships.

As for my wife’s son being gay, his lifestyle bring shame upon her as a mother. Gays never think of what they do to others, as all their can care about is satisfying their own sensual desires – and that is not love in any imaginable sense.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 7:10 pm

I do agree with your view of why religion is helpful in society. Living in harmony is even more vital today, given the sheer number of people on this small planet. We can only hope that we can all respect one another’s choice of religion. Actually, we MUST learn to do that!

Not being a parent myself, I can’t really know what it feels like to have a son or daughter, but I can attest to knowing what it’s like to have LGBTQ family members and friends, and I know they aren’t intending to bring shame on anyone. That feeling is due to not understanding the natural condition of being different from what some folks feel comfortable or familiar with.

I’m not suggesting that your wife doesn’t feel the way she does. But I am saying that her shame comes from HER mindset, not entirely from her son and his life choice.

In time, I hope you’ll discover that your wife’s (Gay) son is just like you and everybody else.
Deserving of everything that comes with being part of a loving family.

Namaste’
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:12 pm

Some of the “churches of tares” are growing but they don’t have Christians in them, they are full of non-believers. It’s sad. There’s a you tube video on it.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 9:25 pm

Generally the first casualty of the “tare church” is the Bible, they either toss it out and make it simply a reference point- and that is what a vice moderator of the PCUSA called it.
I used to belong to a PCUSA church until 2010 when they no longer supported either the Bible or their traditional creeds. Most of the Christians in that particular church fled.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 11:17 am

Exactly right. Don’t you love it when they quote apostates from the pulpit? Or outright Marxists? I heard one “pastor” on the radio quote Abraham Maslow, a Marxist who once wrote he made up his “hierarchy of needs” to replace Christian thought.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 6:15 am

If you were to follow laymen.org you would see that hundreds of PCUSA churches have bailed out and joined other Presbyterian denominations. While a particular PCUSA may have grown, worldwide, that denominations is declining.
Comment by MarcoPolo on April 28, 2017 at 5:33 pm

Funny how anything that seems unfamiliar to the Traditionalists is the act of Satan.
God is. And so too, are LGBTQ parishioners in any church!
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:14 pm

What exactly are you trying to say?
Comment by Gianinatio on April 29, 2017 at 11:09 am

That anyone trying to judge people by a nebulous and very small passage in the bible should probably go and read Leviticus and start judging themselves.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 29, 2017 at 9:48 pm

We’re to read the Bible and understand it before judging anyone. But, we’re to rebuke after we have the general idea. And, whatever happened to excommunication?
Comment by Gianinatio on April 30, 2017 at 8:41 am

Wow, some people have a gift for missing the point. Bravo!
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 10:53 am

You’ve obviously missed the point, not me. I was just clarifying your mistake.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 9:43 am

Oh you CINO’s, always thinking you know what’s right for everyone else based on your limited interpretation of reality. Try reading the whole bible and adhering to all of it.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 10:54 am

I have read the whole Bible. You are really being prejudiced and judgmental. You the prefect example of what you say you can’t tolerate.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 11:46 am

Hardly. Prejudiced against whom? What right have I denied you unto yourself? The right to tell others how they should live is not a right at all. You are free to live as you wish in the world and the country as long as it doesn’t infringe upon others. So any notion of prejudice is nonsensical. I tolerate everyone who tolerates others. Rejecting your intolerance of others is no different from rejecting your theft of others, coveting of others, murder of others, etc. I reject anything you do which infringes upon the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness by others.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 12:27 pm

Look up the definition of prejudiced…weren’t you just a way back posing as a Christian and quoting the Bible? Now you’re a live and let live type of guy and are associating yourself with the Declaration of Independence and the rights given to us by God. You reject God and so once again you are being nonsensical and going farther off topic.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 2:20 pm

What “I” am is irrelevant to the discussion. The only person apparently posing is you. The only right “God” gives people is the right to die. Man gave those rights in the constitution. Hence the reason other men in other countries haven’t given those rights and don’t share our constitution. Honestly, can you please make a cogent argument?
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 2:58 pm

I take it you have no idea where the words “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” came from. You probably think you made them up. The men who wrote the Declaration thought all people reading it were capable of understanding their rights came from God. Obviously they were in contact with a better quality of people.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 3:49 pm

Claiming and understanding are entirely different constructs.

Obviously I need to be debating better quality people.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 6:58 pm

Well, when you are trolling, you get what you get. Why do you bother when you are smarter than the apostles and the Founding Fathers?
Comment by Riolion on May 2, 2017 at 2:56 pm

Marco “you are quite right, the world’s religions truly HAVE had horrible rituals over the millennia, but that doesn’t let Christianity off the proverbial hook either. Remember the Crusades?”

The INSTITUTIONIZED “Christian” religion has not always followed the teachings of the Bible. Remember what happened when Martin Luther spoke out against the institutionalized Roman Catholic church?
But one should not identify what Christians do by viewing such moral wreaks. The church should be a continuing reforming entity.

As to your non-belief in the Christian faith, I suggest that you read the Bible as all too often the living Word will be there with the written word. Many have tried to disprove the Christian faith and found themselves being one of its spokespersons.
Comment by Gary Ritner on April 26, 2017 at 11:18 pm

Bless your heart, as they say in the South when they hear something despicable, full of hatred and ignorance … and more
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 27, 2017 at 10:37 am

Yawn. Thanks for the concession speech. You obviously have no arguments, so you throw out the childish “hatred and ignorance” sound bite. What a pathetic and typical “Christian” Leftist!

The truth sound like hate to those that hate the truth. And the “Christian” Left hates the truth.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:49 pm

Oooh, you learn so much stylistically from Das Orange Fuhrer. You can call names! You can use “quotes” out of context. You can bend words. You’re just precious. Bless your heart…
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:39 am

I was #nevertrump, but thanks for visiting from Stereotype Land. Once again, you can’t refute a single argument I’ve made so you throw out a bunch of world salad. Thanks for your concession speech as well.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:24 pm

You are just full of hate!
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:23 pm

You must have heard that continually.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 30, 2017 at 4:32 pm

To the gay, anything that disagrees with their immoral lifestyle is hate. And in telling the Christian we are not to judge them, they are certainly quick to judge and condemn anyone that has any disagreement with them. What is good for the gander should be good enough for the goose!
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:31 pm

Satan? You mean God’s servant who in the Hebrew texts was assigned to test humans? Or the character that Milton & friends stole from a bad mixup of Greek mythology and Judaism to scare Christian children with a faux dualism?
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:44 am

LOL Thanks for conceding that you are a fake Christian by mocking the word of God.
Comment by DaveWright on April 28, 2017 at 7:45 pm

Ah, now we’re on to deciding who’s fake or not. Perhaps take a biblical studies course on the history of the figure of Satan in Hebrew culture, or on the evolution and construction of Satan in early-medieval Christian culture. Not sure how taking the bible seriously is mocking it, but you do you.
Comment by Dennis on April 28, 2017 at 4:09 pm

GOD is Love but GOD is also a Judge! Time will come these people will be judged! Please agree in the Holy Bible, and not let the Bible agree with you!!
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:10 pm

Exactly right. Satan is having a field day everyday in the NCC churches. He who has ears let him hear. God has closed the ears of these two women, all they can hear is the evil one.
Comment by Preacherman on April 26, 2017 at 4:17 pm

Not only disrespectful and disobedient to the Book of Discipline, but even worse to twist holy scripture.
Comment by RioLion on April 27, 2017 at 4:28 pm

Yes, it is simply a matter of time when the UMC will follow down the same dirt road the PCUSA has gone. And what will happen, sorry but the sheep will leave as they will not recognize the voice of those who hate what the teachings of the Bible are regarding sexuality.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 2:21 am

They’re the teachings of humans that misconstrue what the Bible says about human sexuality. But you won’t realize that until it’s too late, and at the judgment throne, God will ask you, “Why didn’t you let my LGBTQ children know how much I loved them?” How will you try to justify yourself then?
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 5:56 am

xnlover – the teaching of the Bible is for those in sin to repent. What the LGBTQ community really wants is love and acceptance of their sin and that without the call to repentance. They want the church to accept what is sin contrary to what the church has taught for centuries. And that is the basic issue as we see it. If the UMC follows the PCUSA, and the other denominations down this path, they will destroy the church and the sheep will leave. Just look at what has happened in the PCUSA with dozens of churches leaving for the more Biblical denominations.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 10:13 pm

While the genuine Christian should love others regardless of who or what they are, it is the sin that is hated by both the Christian and God.
Sin is really not only something that offends but is also something that destroys that abundant life the Lord would have for us. “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly”. John 10:10b
The gay has little or no control over his sexuality but will satisfy it in any way convenient.

I wonder if you have ever questioned what homosexuals do?
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 11:08 pm

You wrote, “The gay has little or no control over his sexuality but will satisfy it in any way convenient.” That is such an egregious lie, that you are guilty of bearing false witness against your neighbor. You need to repent of your sin and get out of your pharisaical box and get to know some of the many loving gay folks who love Jesus and serve him in ways that would surprise and humble you – not to mention who have complete control over their sexuality and satisfy it in responsible ways with monogamous partners to whom they are completely committed.
Comment by Malleus on April 29, 2017 at 11:11 pm

Creepy old fairy.
Who would commit to some elderly perv like you?
You’ll die of AIDS.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 30, 2017 at 3:57 pm

It has NOT been my observation that the gay has much of any power to resist sexual temptation. All you need to do is to walk into a gay bar on some Saturday night and try to use the rest room.

xnlover, all you need to do to prove that her holiness Bishop Oliveto in her view that sex outside of the marital state is acceptable is to provide the relevant scripture references. If you succeed in doing that both Jesus and I will bow down in reverence to both you and her.

For your information the spirit of Jesus resides within the Christian and tells one what is morally right, and in that we are told not only within ourselves but in His Word, that sexual relations with the same gender is totally wrong and inappropriate. And that is not what you describe as an egregious lie.
Comment by Lee Jensen on May 1, 2017 at 5:44 pm

While it is true that you may find a few gays that are faithful to each other, the majority according to the literature are not faithful to each other but have several relations as they find convenient.

Reasonably if those in the gay lifestyle really had control over their sexuality, they would not have accepted that lifestyle in the first place as all too much is harmful health-wise as well as socially.

What I see is those in the gay lifestyle have never reached maturity as they like small children have not ceased to explore their sexuality.
Comment by Dennis on April 28, 2017 at 4:07 pm

Amen brother! GOD is Love but GOD is also a Judge! Time will come these people will be judged! Please agree in the Holy Bible, and not let the Bible agree with you!!
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 2:22 am

And yet, though Jesus warned you not to judge, saying that you will be judged by the same standard as you use to judge others, you consider your own judgment to be equal to God’s in condemning LGBTQ people and those who love them. I hope you see the light of truth before you appear before the judgment throne of God.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 6:12 am

We are not to judge what is evil? John 7:24 Joh 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

And the right judgment is it not that homosexuality is a sin as that is plainly depicted in the Bible? All the church asks is for those in sin to repent and turn away from their sin. But some in the UMC want to throw out the teachings of the Bible that does not accept their sin. We have one in our family that is in the gay lifestyle but while we accept and love him, we do not accept his view that homosexuality is not a sin.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 11:59 am

Read 1 Cor. 13 and then tell me your judgment isn’t partial rather than “right.” A little humility in the face of God’s abundant grace would go a long way toward resolving our conflicts.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 2:28 pm

xnlover, having been a student of the Bible for over 60 years, I can with full confidence state that the interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 is NOT to love sin.
You apparently do NOT even have a clue of what the Bible teaches not realizing that the interpretation given on its teachings is that of noted Bible scholars for some 20 centuries.
As I would suspect, the Bible is a book you really have not read nor do you realize the Christian has a relationship with its Author.
All you are trying to do is to change the interpretation to fit a destructive lifestyle.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 5:01 pm

I hope if God gives you a 61st year to study the Bible, you will finally learn how scandalous God’s grace actually is. (cf. 1 Cor. 1.23. I’m not sure if you’re more like the Jews or the Gentiles to whom Paul refers in that passage.)
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 9:18 pm

I have studied theology up thru first year Greek and have yet to find anything in the Bible that supports any sexual relationship outside the marital bed.

Yes, the grace of God is always scandalous (causes an outrage among those of a worldly and unregenerate nature): to those who reject the morality advocated by those of the church.

Re 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

Sorry but I for one would not care to be of a lifestyle that is generally filthy and problematic, nor would I recommend it to others.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 5:02 pm

By the way, I’m not sure what you believe to be “destructive” about the “lifestyle” Bishop Oliveto lives. Would you enlighten me, please?
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 9:01 pm

Check for instance the suicide rate among the gays. It is far greater than the straight population.

And when it comes to disease, there is always a fear among gays as to AIDS as most cannot resist any temptation for sexual relationships even among those that are total strangers. Rarely does any gay limit himself to a single relationship.
Comment by Morgan James on April 29, 2017 at 11:31 am

You speak with forked tongue. You judge the judging to say you should not judge. Circular and hypocritical I believe. See the light indeed!
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 11:58 am

And so you, too, violate Jesus’ command. That’s not judgment on my part; it’s simply drawing your attention to what Jesus said.
Comment by Carol Null Null on April 29, 2017 at 6:39 pm

Another example of pulling out Scripture too make a point across. We are to judge! but we are to do so fairly…we are not condemning them, we are trying to pull them out of the fire.. if you really love someone you will not allow them to continue in a downward spiral to destruction.. you must really read all Scripture before and after before you voice your own opinion. You can’t say you are a believer and ignore the Old Testament teachings, the Same God you see there is the same God you see in the New Testament. Jesus made it pretty clear that He and God are one, and that He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil the law.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 11:27 pm

Do you even know a gay person? If they are living a dissolute lifestyle, by all means, work to pull them out of the fire. But if you think Bishop Oliveto and others such as she are living a lifestyle that is anything but grace-filled and holy, then you need to check your prejudices, because your projection of the imagined “gay lifestyle” onto persons such as she is has become a case of bearing false witness against a neighbor. I’ve found that that commandment is the one conservatives most frequently and blatantly violate without giving it a second thought.
Comment by Carol Null Null on April 30, 2017 at 8:51 am

Yes I do! my niece ..and I love her with all my heart and have never treated her or her partner with anything but respect and worth..even though she knows I don’t approve , it has never diminished our relationship with one another..and when she asks for advice I give it, but only when she asks!!!!

It is most apparent that you do not offer the same respect and value to someone that offers a different view other than yours.

I see that you pulled out bearing false testimony against someone…God also mentions that we are not to steal, lie, cheat. I do not judge what the pagans do, but anyone who claims to be a Christian and does not follow and obey God’s word, the Bible says we are to warn them. Since Ms. Oliveto represents herself as a follow believer, she is held accountable if the word of God is not preached or taught correctly, and as one believer I must warn her.

I do not wish any harm to come to her or anyone else in this lifestyle, as I do not wish harm to an drug addict, alcoholic..we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory..yes! even you…but not so far that God cannot redeem us , but we must call sin, sin , even if we don’t like what the Bible says. I’am not your enemy, but there is a real and dangerous force that is working in the hearts and minds of all people keeping them blinded from God’s whole truth…God’s peace and blessing upon you sir!
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 30, 2017 at 4:04 pm

Yes, I know one gay person; in fact, he is my wife’s son and while we condemn his lifestyle we love and respect both him and his “wife”. In fact, we have more respect for him than we do for my wife’s son-in-law who is a finger-pointing Independent Baptist minister, who is our opinion has done all he can to nail the doors of hell open to those who would repent if convinced that the gay lifestyle is sinful.
Comment by MarcoPolo on May 1, 2017 at 7:58 am

Most Gay spouses are referred to as “husbands”, not “wives”. Lesbians have “wives”….. Just for clarification.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 2:18 am

That’s what the Pharisees said about Jesus, so I guess we’re in good company.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 2:48 pm

Christians have always been slandered by those that they hate claiming that it is the Christian that hates others whereas it is sin that both the Christian and God hates. But I am glad that you are trying hard to destroy the UMC since it will like the PCUSA, Episcopal, et. al cause the sheep to leave for more Biblical oriented denominations. And you will have left is a dead and dying denomination.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 5:05 pm

So, I take it you see no value in trying to woo some of us into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, being more a Romans 7 kind of guy and ignoring the lesson of Romans 8.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 8:59 pm

Sorry there xnlover but one of the larger churches I formerly belonged to had a ministry to gays and to some extent it was effective in reaching some for Christ. They always met for Bible study, prayer and for mutual support several times per week.

And yes, one can be a spiritual born Christian and have a struggle within if they are in that lifestyle as the indwelling Spirit of God is in the cleaning business.

Yes, you really need to read Romans 7.
Comment by Nutstuyu on April 26, 2017 at 4:18 pm

If she remains in place, then no male clergy should ever have to resign or be defrocked again for sexual “harassment” or extramarital affairs.
Remember, nearly all the Biblical patriarchs had multiple wives and other sexual partners.
Comment by Rusty V. Butler on April 27, 2017 at 9:51 am

You are kidding right?
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:34 pm

Oh, please, be a troll, girlfriend. This is brilliant trolling or the most repressed fragile maleness that I’ve seen in weeks. Either way, precious!
Comment by Keith Jenkins on April 26, 2017 at 6:08 pm

I have no intention of getting into an argument here (I wholeheartedly support full inclusion of LGBTQ persons in the life and ministry of the UMC). I simply wish to ask the AUTHOR (and no one else) why he felt it necessary to put the word bishop in quotation marks in this article. Many UMs may not like it, but Bishop Oliveto was duly elected and consecrated by the Western Jurisdiction and assigned to her current episcopal assignment. Until such time as the Judicial Council rules on this matter, what basis are you using, other than your own opinions, to call her status as a UM bishop into question in this way.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 27, 2017 at 10:41 am

All “Christian” Leftists should have quotes around their titles. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They consciously mock the Bible and the Book of Discipline. If you support them as ministers you are ignorant and/or malicious.
Comment by TR on April 27, 2017 at 5:20 pm

Okay. This is a cute puppy, no lie. The fact that it’s also a professed Christian who possesses the ability to type English, is extraordinary!

I wish it could offer a bit more humility and compassion online though! The whole doggy-Pharisee thing kinda detracts from the cuteness. 🙁
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 27, 2017 at 8:00 pm

Ah, more pathetic, fact-free, logic-free put-downs. I’m sure you think you are clever, but what you typed is a concession speech, basically shouting that you know nothing of what scripture really says and are fine that these wolves lied at their ordination in promising to uphold the Book of Discipline — not to mention the Bible!

Remember, the Pharisees were the ones who disagreed with Jesus, and that’s the “Christian” Left. Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
Comment by TR on April 27, 2017 at 10:46 pm

Ah, beloved sibling. You seem so sincere. It just doesn’t occur to you that you possibly could be wrong, in your insistence that what God has made clean, is actually unclean, because you want it to be so. Best wishes, truly.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:45 am

And more fact-free, logic free nonsense. I could be wrong, but the burden on you is to show me with Bible verses, in context.

And go find a mirror, hypocrite. Or did you not notice how you don’t tell these “Christian” Left wolves to consider how they might be wrong?
Comment by TR on April 28, 2017 at 11:09 am

A sincere question. How is Jesus is honored when you engage in demeaning behavior like name-calling and insults?

And sure, you’re not the only one acting like that, but that doesn’t excuse what you’re doing. You seem sincere in your convictions, so help me understand how you are modeling a faithful example with your comments here.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 12:50 pm

I used very specific terms for false teachers and wolves, just like Jesus. Study what He said and you’ll see what I mean.

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?

Luke 11:45–46 One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 1:34 pm

How is Jesus honored when the “Christian” Left mocks everything about him, including his views on sex and marriage? Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.

http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/opposites-3/
Comment by TR on April 28, 2017 at 3:14 pm

Different conclusions about the essential meaning of the scripture you site do not amount to dishonoring Christ, nor mockery of scripture. But for you to disparage your siblings in Christ with insults and name-calling does indeed demean Him.

It is true that Jesus used harsh language against some of the people before him. Jesus did. But you and I are not Him. We are part of the crowd, sinners all. Christ’s judgment seat belongs to Him. I encourage you to allow Him to be the one to occupy it.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:35 pm

God gave us brains and we are to use them. We read the Bible and then put it into action. We don’t have to take insults from non-believers, especially Leftist trolls.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:32 pm

What has God made clean?
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:52 pm

And I’m sure you studiously avoid shrimp, wearing mixed-fiber clothing, and when your shower gets mildewy you call a priest and have him do the thing with the two turtle doves.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:38 am

Ah, more ignorance from the “Christian” Left. Gee, never heard that one before. Didn’t realize I was living in an Israelite theocracy.

The shrimp / shellfish / mixed fiber argument is full of holes but is appealing to many because so few bother to study the passages. I address six serious problems with it in flaws of the shellfish argument. The short version: There were different Hebrew words translated as abomination. They were used differently in the individual verses and were used very differently in broader contexts (e.g., Lev. 11 shows civil/ceremonial laws made to the Israelites only and Lev. 18 shows moral laws applied to all people). The associated sins had radically different consequences and had 100% different treatments in the New Testament. And the claim that Christians are inconsistent if they say homosexual behavior is a sin if they don’t also avoid shellfish, mixed fibers, etc. would mean that they couldn’t complain about bestiality, child sacrifice, adultery, etc.

The longer version: https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2007/11/24/favorite-dish-of-liberal-theologians-skeptics-shellfish/
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:36 pm

You really have a hard time with the propaganda points.
Comment by Keith Jenkins on April 27, 2017 at 6:47 pm

A comment like yours has no effect other than reflecting badly on you, revealing the pride at the center of your heart, thinking you are the one who determines who is and who isn’t in a right relationship with God. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior every bit as much as he is yours, and your suggestion that he is not is meaningless.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 27, 2017 at 7:58 pm

LOL. More silly personal attacks. I’m just stating facts that God has revealed to us clearly in his word. These wolves deliberately and brazenly defy the Book of Discipline they committed to uphold and pretended to believe. That gets you fired in most organizations.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits and gave many warnings of false teachers. That you try to twist this to judge me shows how little you know about him and what He really said.

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:36 pm

Well, you started the personal attacks. Guess it isn’t fun being on the receiving end. Way to live the gospel.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:42 am

The “Christian” Left knows nothing of the real Gospel. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/opposites-3/
Comment by johnschuh on April 28, 2017 at 8:25 pm

Liberal Christians start by denying the authority of the Scripture, and then deconstruct the text in order to justify their conclusion.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:46 am

Wow, pretty judgmental of you! I’m just going by what the Bible says and what the “Christian” Left believes, which is the opposite. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/opposites-3/
Comment by Dennis on April 28, 2017 at 4:12 pm

Amen to that!

GOD is Love but GOD is also a Judge! Time will come these people will be judged! Agree in the Holy Bible, and let not the Bible agree with you!!
Comment by johnschuh on April 28, 2017 at 8:18 pm

You propose to set aside what has been established doctrine since the earliest times.Not only sodomy but the sexuality of the gentiles whom Christians set out too convert. Who gives you this authority? The bishop invokes the Holy Ghost, much as did the leaders of the Anabaptists of Luther’s time. As did some early Christian converts who Paul corrected. The ancient claims of the gnostics are raised again: the body is worthy of no respect,so it matters not what one does with it, so long as the mind is pure.
Comment by Keith Jenkins on April 28, 2017 at 8:37 pm

I’m not accountable to you for what I believe, but FYI, a gnostic is about as far from what I am as possible. Plus, the sin of Sodom had nothing to do with sexual activity.
Comment by johnschuh on April 28, 2017 at 9:57 pm

Gnosticism is famous for sexual promiscuity, because if the body is corrupt, then no behavior can make it more corrupt.
Comment by Keith Jenkins on April 29, 2017 at 9:01 am

Yes, I’m aware of that. Give yourself a prize. But it has nothing to do with Bishop Oliveto or other LGBTQ persons in the UMC. They are as monogamous as the most orthodox heterosexuals.

“Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” Ezekiel 16:49
Comment by johnschuh on April 29, 2017 at 10:56 am

To persist in sin is a sign of being unrepentant.
The only thing that gives her a pass is that she is ignorant or deluded . St.Paul calls this a madness owing to idolatry, and by no means limits it to homosexuality. Jews rejected it as just one aspect of paganism. But really, it all boils down to authority, which one choses. Proof texting one way or another is a fruitless substitution for debate, but there is no common ground. The authority of someone like Anthony Kennedy speaking for secular court is certainly of no value except to explicate the Zeitgeist. The way of the world. John Wesley certainly did not agree with you.
Comment by Keith Jenkins on April 29, 2017 at 11:38 am

And who are you to set yourself up as the authoritative interpreter of either John Wesley or the Bible? As I said to you before, I am not accountable to you in any way, and you have neither relationship with me nor authority over me, so you might as well quit trying to persuade me of the “error of my ways.” I won’t respond any more.
Comment by johnschuh on April 29, 2017 at 2:30 pm

No more than you. But you in fact have taken a position opposed to that of all generations since the earliest Church.It is unto you to prove your case, since you are the rebel.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:35 pm

Okay, so I’ll start referring to you and friends as “Christian” facists and bigots! Deal! You consciously mock love and grace and the God who is bigger than all our biases!

Please, start signing yourself as “Christian” Bigot. I will HAPPILY sign myself as “Christian” leftist in return.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:43 am

I just sign as Christian. “Christian” Leftists have made up their own God-mocking religion. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/opposites-3/
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:30 pm

Call yourself a Marxist, and not a Christian, then at least you won’t be lying.
Comment by LukeinNE on April 27, 2017 at 10:58 am

Though I suspect we disagree on the correct outcome, I do agree with this. The Donatist controversy back in the 4th century revolved around whether the actions of deeply flawed bishops and clergy were legitimate or not. They ultimately decided that that God could indeed act through the Sacraments administered by these people, even if they had no business being installed in their position in the first place. So yes, I’d like to see the author drop the sarcastic quotes around “bishop.”
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:50 pm

THANK YOU. I disagree, but THANK YOU for being someone here who thinks for themselves and could have a reasonable (I think) conversation.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:34 pm

AMEN.
Comment by Garden of Love on April 29, 2017 at 11:04 pm

“bishop”
Comment by Terresa on April 26, 2017 at 11:18 pm

Karen uses scripture to justify taking a position of influence to ‘bear fruit’. Another bit of scripture warns us of false prophets and their bad fruit. My heart breaks for the Christians, and particularly for the Methodists, who have swallowed this bad fruit.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:37 pm

Mmmmmm, scripture out of context is TASTY. I like mine with marmalade. Please, keep prooftexting. I’m all ears!
Comment by OldCat1 on April 27, 2017 at 12:28 pm

Oliveto wants to buildup the body without a call for repentance.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:42 pm

Well, that’s uninformed.
Comment by xnlover on April 27, 2017 at 3:12 pm

On this thread I see in the responses the fulfillment of Jesus’ warning to his disciples, “For you will be expelled from the synagogues [churches], and the time is coming when those who kill [or defrock] you will think they are doing a holy service for God.” (John 16.2) But there is no shame here, only pridefulness.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 10:36 pm

That is what they are doing in the “liberal” churches, getting rid of the Christians by driving them away with the LGBT stuff. Just like the Jews drove the Christians out. Exactly as Jesus said.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 2:17 am

The conservatives have had the votes in General Conference ever since 1972 to steamroll anti-gay legislation through and into the Book of Discipline, so it’s ludicrous for you to claim that it is the liberals who are driving people out of churches. Every four years, the conservatives tighten the pharisaical screws, driving more and more gay youth who love Jesus to commit suicide and more and more people who love their LGBTQ family members and friends to seek grace outside the UMC. John Wesley’s fears are in serious danger of being realized, that the UMC, having finally driven out all those who love the Lord but find no love in the UMC, will have the form of religion but not the power, having relied on political power to work their will rather than Holy Spirit power to bind us together with cords that cannot be broken.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 29, 2017 at 9:55 pm

The liberals have been driving people out of the churches in America since colonial days. And, how come the gay youth are committing suicide now and weren’t let’s say, before 1950 when actual Christians controlled the mainline denominations? You’re scapegoating Christians. All violent behavior has gone up over the last hundred years including suicide, especially suicide among young people. It’s due to the lack of Christianity and morals and values, and not due to too much of them.
Comment by xnlover on April 29, 2017 at 11:15 pm

Many gays commit suicide because some Christians practice the version of Christianity that shames them and calls them worthless rather than seeking to love them for Christ’s sake. That’s not “scapegoating Christians”; that’s saying that there are some Christians who act in ways that would cause Jesus to weep yet again because of their hardheartedness towards those he loves. (Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisee who was offended because Jesus let the woman of ill repute wash his feet with her tears and dry them with her hair? That’s what Jesus would say to Christians who are ungrateful, because they believe they have little for which to be forgiven, and they think that gives them the authority to condemn others whom they see as worse sinners than they.)
Comment by Malleus on April 29, 2017 at 11:16 pm

What a creep. Is that your face or your assho/e, granny?
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 12:00 am

Like I stated, you are scapegoating Christians and you really need to put your glasses on when you read the Bible. Jesus said to sinners “Go and sin no more.” You can’t keep doing the sin and call yourself a Christian, no matter what the sin is. You have to walk the walk. Christ did not expect everyone to follow him, only his sheep. I don’t think the confused kids of today are Christians, at least not the LGBT kids making films of themselves on the net espousing antichristian nonsense. The ones in the gay parades aren’t concerned about what Christians think either.
Comment by xnlover on April 30, 2017 at 12:55 am

You say “the ones in the gay parades aren’t concerned about what Christians think,” as if it was up to them to become interested in what people whom they hear only condemn them think. Do you care about what people who only condemn you think? Either Christians do the hard work to showing love to those who most need it, or they fail Jesus, because that was the point of his whole ministry.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 10:51 am

Do a search on “Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade 2015,” filmed by GayGod. It’s on you tube. Little kids are in the parade and teenagers, the United Methodists are, the Episcopalians are, the ACLU and the unions are, Democrats and Leftist front groups are. The whole thing is about sexualizing America as per the communists like Wilhelm Reich, the father of the sexual revolution. The point of Jesus’s life on earth was to save people per His Father’s instructions. It was not to save everyone on earth, but those who follow Him. John 3:16. If no desire to follow what He said, no saving grace. If you think you are sin free and do not have to repent and don’t repent, you will not be saved. The gate is narrow.
Comment by xnlover on April 30, 2017 at 2:49 am

You say, “Jesus said to sinners, ‘Go and sin no more.'” Have you stopped sinning? If not, why not? But also, you quote part of what Jesus says to the woman, but you ignore the first part of it. “Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you.'” And only AFTER that does he say, “Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.” And why is there no one condemning her? Because Jesus shamed them into putting down the rocks with which they were going to stone her to death by telling them, “Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” And yet, here you are, throwing stones at people you don’t even know, while the people who were confronted by Jesus when they wanted to do the same thing were humbled by his remarks into stopping, reflecting on their own sin, and realizing they had no room to talk, let alone to condemn someone else, when they had their own sins to address. Why don’t you quote the whole passage, rather than quoting only the passage that tells other people about their sin, while avoiding the part that confronts you with your own? That’s part of the problem. And the other part is that you claim Christians are given authority to judge others according to the sins the Bible lists, yet Jesus, the one who came to fulfill the law, does not himself rightfully claim authority to condemn the woman for her sin. He shows her grace that, if anything, will be the only thing that helps her refrain from sinning in the future. So, you do the very thing Jesus himself refuses to do, and you consider yourself justified in doing it. Amazing!
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 11:02 am

I didn’t ignore anything. You misinterpret the Bible. We are supposed to judge our own actions and those of others according to the Ten Commandments as well as the other laws and rules in the Bible and Jesus judged as well. He never said everyone is going to heaven. And I haven’t once made a judgment on the woman Jesus was talking about in the Bible.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 30, 2017 at 10:40 am

You are scapegoating Christians. What does homosexuality have to do with ungrateful Christians? You’re making silly statements.
Comment by Samuel F Waddell on April 27, 2017 at 4:04 pm

Let all who name the name of Christ must depart from iniquity 2 Timothy 2:19. Homosexuality is sin and an abomination to God says the Scripture. Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1: 24-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Jude
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:42 pm

Too bad the word and concept for “homosexuality” is an 18th century construction, and that the biblical texts used for bigotry and discrimination actually reflect a culture in which mutual, relational, equitable same-sex partnerships were largely erased.

Oh, and I guess you want us to get rid of women who teach or preach, right? Or do you just like the little bits of the NT that support your heteronormativity? And I guess you need to start throwing stones or otherwise executing LGBTQ folks, since you cited Leviticus. Let me know, I’ll try to make sure the police are handy. Or please, come take a shot at me. I’m in Tacoma and haven’t had an active biblical death threat since I was at Duke.

Oops, you want the bigotry but not the violence? Then explain your handy dandy prooftexting. Because Christian heteronormativity KILLS QUEER KIDS.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:50 am

Wow, such a delusional anti-Christian. Romans 1 (and elsewhere) clearly describes consensual, adult, gay and lesbian behavior.

Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And agreeing with Jesus does not kill gays. But AIDS sure does. And kids going into the gay lifestyle are a coin flip away from HIV and Syphilis. At least that’s what the haters at the CDC say. If you really love people you’ll warn them that the gay lifestyle is a coin flip away from getting HIV. From — http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/09/25/behind-the-increase-in-hiv-infections-among-gay-and-bisexual-men/ — “Gay and bisexual men represent an estimated 2% of the U.S. population but more than half of all people living with HIV and 66% of new HIV infections. They are the only population group in the United States for which HIV infections are rising. Projections have shown that if current trends continue, half of all gay and bisexual men will be HIV-positive by age 50.”
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:50 am

Oh, and when was “heteronormativity” constructed? 🙂 http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/problems-with-pro-gay-theology-2/ The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:

– 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
– 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
– 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
– 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.
– 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.

Having said that, I believe that Christians should support and encourage those who are fighting same-sex attraction. And no one needs to grandstand on the issue before getting to the Good News of the cross: http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ .

* The three general types of pro-gay theology people:

1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)
2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)
3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 7:42 pm

Only in your mind. Telling kids God’s truth saves kids.
Comment by DaveWright on April 28, 2017 at 7:54 pm

Funny. Look at some data about the suicide rate of LGBTQ+ youth and teens and young adults, and how many of their narratives name anti-Queer Christianities as a part of what drives them to or over that edge. So…yes, everyone on this page posting this hateful, anti-Queer bullshit is complicit in the death of children. Congrats.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 8:33 pm

Isn’t that a shame? When our fearless leaders started getting rid of Christianity in the 1940s even they noted that the suicide rate would go up as true Christianity was gotten rid of. White males have the highest suicide rates and that was true before 1940, but their rates keep going up. Also, the suicides among young people have really gone up. It has everything to do with God’s word not being taught. Your world view is skewed and the LGBQ lifestyle is as well.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 11:51 am

Well if you’re going to look at statistics, look to see that the rates of crime and violence are all lowest in countries that have the least amount of religion (christian religion). I’ll take secularism if it means being safer from those who spend lifetimes vilifying other people through their prejudicial judgmentalism. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 12:32 pm

They don’t keep the same stats. Do you think when they do an honor killing in a country, they write it done as criminal? You’ll take secularism because it has been promoted in our society by the Marxists from the Frankfurt School and others such a Abraham Maslow. Even Oprah Winfrey has a humanistic self-actualization “religion.”
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 2:19 pm

What on earth is that all about. Of course THEY (western and modern countries) keep similar enough statistics. Are you making up alt facts to support your narrative? Should we trust you more than the PhD researchers involved in that article? Why? What are your scientific and journalistic credentials? God?

Lord, it’s people like you who drive others away from Christianity. Sad.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 2:48 pm

You want stats from Western nations? You didn’t say so. The people in America more likely to commit crimes are not Christian. And, we are defining deviancy down to make more and more activities legal. Christianity is an inclusive religion. A person of any color or background may join the Christian religion. But, they certainly aren’t forced to and are called hypocrites if their claims are a ruse. It is a given that anti-Christians operate in the church. We have heard stories for years about them.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 3:48 pm

So you clearly didn’t read the link, look at the stats, look at the source, understand the statistics, or in any way endeavor to engage in an educated debate. You’d rather reply without looking at the link counting on what? Some innate knowledge you’re blessed with to answer in response? Secularity is even MORE open than Christianity and the research is clear, secular states (non forced like China) enjoy lower levels of crime. People who don’t endeavor to understand others stand clearly in their own contempt-prior-to-investigation. Aka Judgment.

If your position is so right and pure, then it’s shouldn’t need to sell itself from a position of ignorant naivete. Be honest. That’s what the bible would have us do.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 6:54 pm

No, I didn’t go to your link. But, you can look up the top 50 highest crime cities in the world and get a handle on crime. Or go to the FBI site, or the other law enforcement sites. Christianity is an inclusive religion and anyone in the world can join up. And just like any other religion, there are tenets to be followed. If you aren’t a Christian, why do you even care? You certainly are bothered by what other people do to the point of making up stories. Why not just kick back and do your own thing? Why troll Christian sites?
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 7:01 pm

That was not the point of the discussion. THe point, which you raised, is that somehow you believe that losing religion is increasing crime. That’s easily disproven by science…the thing you seem to reject rather dismissively. I’ll pray for you.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 7:18 pm

The crime in the United States has increased since the early 1900s, and there are stats to prove it. We were more of a Christian nation in 1900 than we are today. All sorts of statisticians have linked the two. Why is this such a problem for you?
Comment by Gianinatio on May 2, 2017 at 8:31 am

Actually, no, that isn’t remotely true. Murder rates peaked in 1935. Find a fact!

The only crime that has caused an increase is the one we most recently criminalized – drug use – in the 1970s. Bible doesn’t say much about drug use. That’s a physiological failing, not a moral one.

Now, if you’re so good at what “all sorts of statisticians do, then please include some decent links. BTW – I’m a statistician.

Also, the rates we have are REPORTED rates of crime. In the early 1900’s people were far less likely to report crimes. Now we have phones and computers and far better ways of gathering data.

But don’t let those facts get in the way of your concocted narrative.

http://www.jrsa.org/projects/Historical.pdf
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 7:02 pm

And I’m not trolling. You asked a question I thought you wanted to know, I answered, and then you began to troll. Stop lying. So unchristian.
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 7:19 pm

I see your inner troll is coming out.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 2, 2017 at 8:25 am

Does it make you feel better to call people names? Is this your ticket to heaven?
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 8:58 pm

I began to troll? Another lame comment from the troll.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 2, 2017 at 8:24 am

Name calling – very Christian. What bible passage is that judgment in?
Comment by AndRebecca on May 1, 2017 at 2:59 pm

Christianity is an inclusive religion. People from all over the world join.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 8:47 pm

Not funny. You can look at the overall suicide rate and it has gone up for everyone in the country since the 1940s when “they” started getting rid of Christianity.
Comment by AndRebecca on April 28, 2017 at 10:26 pm

You’re scapegoating Christians.
Comment by Samuel F Waddell on April 29, 2017 at 2:34 pm

Dave. Christ -God doesn’t change (Hebrews 13: 8) with time and men’s opinions. What was sin in the past is sin today. What was Godly is still Godly. This is what sound Biblical Theology and an honest study of Scripture shows us. This has nothing to do with bigotry but with moral truth. The only difference between the Old and new Testament is CHRIST has already died for our sins and risen again and now God’s MERCY AND GRACE is offered to all who repent and trust CHRIST fully. Though homosexuality is sin and always will be there is forgiveness to any who turn from it to CHRIST. It is like all other sins, like other sexual sin: adultery or fornication, pornography, we all are called to leave this life of sin and follow JESUS. This is the message He preached and has given us as well and He gives the Holy Spirit to us to empower us to live a new Godly life. We are not perfect but we must be repentant.
Comment by DaveWright on April 29, 2017 at 3:03 pm

This comes to my point: the “issue” isn’t the bigotry of the right, it is a set of radically divergent understandings of the Divine. I’m fine for the UMC to dissolve, but not by one party or the other leaving. The Frankenstein’s Monster we created in ’68 has been beset by irreconcilable theologies from day one, and there is no need for us to force false unity that never existed. Those that want literalism, prooftexting, an a static Male deity frozen in time – and their concomitant isms – are welcome to their own denomination, just as those of us who understand God as fluid, who center in grace, who recognize the scriptures as inspired but imperfect texts, and who believe Her to be alive and at work drawing us towards perfection despite human systems of bigotry and oppression should be able to move into our own denomination. But no one gets to keep the “UMC.” And while we’re still stuck together, I’m going to keep naming the hate and harm that are the soul of groups like the WCA and the IRD.
Comment by Samuel F Waddell on April 29, 2017 at 4:11 pm

Dave, we are not the author of God’s Word or Salvation by grace through faith, we are only stewards of the truth that does not change and proclaimers of the gospel of CHRIST to all the world. Wesley was an evangelical who proclaimed the new birth, in Christ, through repentance and faith and he was a holiness preacher who believed in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, in the life of the believer, both of these truths are found in Scripture and are for us today. If we are to say that we are Christian then we must hold to the truth about CHRIST as the only Savior and the very Son of God, God in the flesh who died for our sins and rose again the third day and if we are to say that we are Methodist then we must preach Scriptural holiness as Wesley did. Grace is God’s unmerited favor. It forgives sinners yet it changes and transforms us. We are not left powerless in our sins but we are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 29, 2017 at 9:53 pm

DaveWright – If Christians were really bigots according to your criteria then you must certainly would have a need to call ALL Christians throughout the past 20 centuries that have disagreed with your view that homosexuality is sinful and contrary to the Bibles teachings.
What you really have is an invention of a new morality that says what is wrong is now right and that the Bible either needs no longer to be our guide or simply ignored.
If you believe tolerance is a virtue, then you should tolerate those that have different viewpoints, but you choose to slander and label others in a derogatory way.
Comment by DaveWright on April 27, 2017 at 11:30 pm

Actually, she’s not “bishop” she is Bishop Karen Oliveto. Thanks, IRD, for your decades of bigotry and bias. Glad to see you still have it in you.
Comment by Eternity Matters on April 28, 2017 at 8:52 am

“Disputed “Bishop” Remains Defiant”

Of course she does. Look, the men of Sodom groped for the door to pursue their homosexual desires even AFTER God blinded them*. Do you really think the Leftists, including the “Christian” Leftists, are going to give up easily? These God-haters are very, very persistent.

*Genesis 19:11 And they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of the house, both small and great, so that they wore themselves out groping for the door.
Comment by Dave Cash on April 28, 2017 at 9:07 am

This is in direct defiance of Romans chapter 1.. indeed, this is the fruit of a reprobate mind
Comment by Jim Britt on April 28, 2017 at 10:48 am

What’s next, electing proud pedophiles?
Comment by Dennis on April 28, 2017 at 4:14 pm

The devil is working in the UMC community and a lot of members are leaving because of these eisegesis people. GOD is Love but GOD is also a Judge! Time will come these people will be judged! Please agree in the Holy Bible, and DO NOT let the Bible agree with you!!
Comment by MarcoPolo on April 28, 2017 at 5:20 pm

Bishop Oliveto deserves to serve the Methodist Church.
She may now lead the way for change in the “Book of Discipline”, and thus open the church to accept more of our brethren, who regardless of their sexual orientation, will emancipate the closed minds of Orthodoxy.
Hallelujah!
Comment by CDR_N on April 28, 2017 at 5:33 pm

The Church could hire someone from Toastmasters to deliver a sermon, and hire a counselor to provide a compassionate, listening ear. Many gifts that are useful can be had without regard to faith. But if the Church should decide that these “gifts” – divorced from Biblical truth and the presence of the Holy Spirit – are more important than godly leadership, it ceases to be part of the true Church. That is the choice that the UMC faces – to be, or not to be, part of the Church Universal.
Comment by Aelialicinia on April 28, 2017 at 5:39 pm

Heresies do what they do best…produce more heresies.
Comment by rickkkkkkk on April 28, 2017 at 8:32 pm

The sad thing is not that it has come to this, but that it took so long for it to happen. The Bishops and bureaucrats have long since lost their way. They let cancer grow within and now it has spread so far. Sometimes, you have to amputate a limb to save the body. Ananias and Sapphira and others point to this. This decision will determine the life or death of the UMC. You have already been bleeding faithful leaders while retaining the apostates, but if this decision retains this apostate as a Bishop, then the UMC bleed out like a ruptured aortic aneurysm.
Comment by Anneke9 on April 29, 2017 at 1:13 pm

“would confirm more LGBTQ clergy for ministry”

… until they drive out all the true believers and have the church all to themselves.
Comment by AlphaGirl on April 29, 2017 at 1:31 pm

Homosexuality (and the ever expanding genders) is unnatural, despicable, perversion and an abomination. Disagree? Call God. He’s in the Book.
As for this “bishop,” the same Book says Satan will enter the church.
Comment by Carol Null Null on April 29, 2017 at 6:18 pm

This woman has not been called to preach, she is a false teacher and a fake. If God had truly called her, she would renounce her wicked live style, yet still continues in her abomination and is leading others down the slippery path to hell. Deuteronomy 32: 35 . Jesus spoke about such wicked and perverse leaders ,,,Matthew 23: 15. I pray that God will open her eyes and change her heart. least wise she be lost for all eternity!
Comment by John Soderberg on April 29, 2017 at 10:30 pm

I am a clergy person. They, long time members of our church family, came to me about their son, who I will call John. “Our son grew up in the church, Sunday School, MYF. He is a fine, thoughtful, moral young man.. When he told us he was gay, we were surprised until we thought about it. We were disturbed. We don’t understand homosexuality.”

Then they surprised me. “We won’t let him go! He will always be our son and we are proud of the way he lives his life even when we don’t understand his sexual feelings. He has a partner. We can tell they really care for each other. They want to celebrate God’s presence in their life. Will you ask God’s blessing in their life together; will you help them make God ‘s love part of their home?

“We love our son! Does our church and our church’s God love our son and partner as much as we do?”

I met Bishop Karen Oliveto on one occasion and was touched by her love. I’m a 76 year old heterosexual but I would welcome her at my bedside when I meet my maker–her maker, John’s maker. I believe her and my God’s love is every bit as big as the love of John’s parents. The God of Jesus does not create junk. That God sees sons, daughters, sisters, brothers—unique, diverse, complex, gifted—incarnated individuals. Thanks be to God!
Comment by mikegillespie on April 29, 2017 at 10:56 pm

The old “climate justice” clown.
Comment by John Soderberg on April 30, 2017 at 8:29 am

God love you Mike! I’ve never been called a “climate justice clown.” BUT I GUESS I AM! I love the Creator and thus His creation—the Earth and the fullness thereof. In a world where we treat the earth as a “resource” rather than the “source,” where we beat each other up with swords, Bibles, Disciplines, and angry words, I’m probably an “old clown.”

Loving the creator and creation, I want justice for all God’s critters and for creation, including those who come after us. I care about the physical and social climate….and the climate of conversation on this forum.

So God love you and bless you Mike.

An Old Creator and Creation Loving Clown
Comment by mikegillespie on April 30, 2017 at 12:21 pm

It’s so obvious that the churches’ embrace of homosexuality and earth worship are paying off in higher attendance.

Episcopalians
1960: 3.2 million
2015: 1.7 million

United Church of Christ
1960: 2,056,000
2015: 914,871
More than half its members in 50 years.

United Methodist
1960: 11.0 million
2015: 7.06 million

Presbyterian Church USA
1983: 3.1 million
2015: 1.5 million

Lutherans (ELCA)
1987: 5.2 million
2015: 3.6 million
The ELCA approved the ordination of non-celibate gays in 2009: it lost a half-million members in 2010-2011, so clearly there was a cause/effect relationship in this case between gay issues and membership decline.

Disciples of Christ
1960: 1.8 million
2014: 497,423
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 30, 2017 at 6:52 pm

I.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 11:47 am

What’s obvious is statistics and the fact that correlation is not causation.
Comment by Lee Jensen on May 1, 2017 at 5:28 pm

Quite the contrary Gianinatio, all one has to do is to read the various articles from the churches that are separating from the PCUSA for instance, and you will find the basic reason is the denominational departure from both their traditions and the Bible. So the correlation is near ONE. enough to conclude a cause and effect. Effectively by throwing out the Bible, they will wreak their denomination. It is as simple as that.
Comment by Gianinatio on May 1, 2017 at 7:04 pm

Plenty of research disputes anything like that conclusion. I daresay the preponderance. One would have to go looking for it first.

Also, even a correlation of 1, and especially a correlation of 1, doesn’t answer cause and effect. At 1, either could be the cause or something(s) entirely different could be the cause.
Comment by Lee Jensen on April 30, 2017 at 6:49 pm

It is true that very young people explore their sexuality but most by the time they grow up will learn to control their sexuality. The homosexual ,however, is one that has not been able to transition from that age of exploration to adulthood. But there has been those who have realized their plight and have been able to discipline themselves and it is those that have testified that they have been able to leave that lifestyle. Unfortunately, the one that continues to foster their sexuality will remain being a gay. The saying goes – those that sow of the flesh will continue to reap of the flesh. What else can be said?
Comment by John Smit on May 2, 2017 at 7:06 am

A pity the autonomy they so highly praise doesn’t extend to autonomy from the rest of the UMC funding them.
Comment by Paul Zesewitz on May 11, 2017 at 6:00 pm

Interesting how quick Rev. Oliveto is to quote the Gospel of John to suit her purpose. But she won’t quote anything from Leviticus chapter 18 because the so-called “Lectionary” (the book that tells progressives like her what Scriptures she can and can’t use) does not suggest that as legitimate Scripture. Honestly I have yet to hear a liberal minister preach from Leviticus 18. Must be the Lectionary deletes it. Regardless, it would be interesting to see how he/ she twists it.

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