It’s tempting to yawn over retired United Methodist Melvin Talbert’s latest same sex rite, this time at a Charlotte church, a nearly all white congregation with few young people and a membership and attendance drop of about 30% over last decade. Talbert, age 82, did a same sex rite in Birmingham in 2013, later forced to express perfunctory regret after the Council of Bishops filed a complaint against him. It’s a longtime cause for Talbert, who was one of the “Denver 15” bishops who publicly opposed United Methodism’s traditionalist marriage teaching at the denomination’s 1996 General Conference. In 1999 Talbert declined to enforce church law when the “Sacramento 67” clergy married two women, one of whom was the conference lay leader, at a convention center. Talbert did react punitively to clergy who affirmed church law, and numerous evangelical pastors left Talbert’s conference and United Methodism.
Talbert embodies the old liberal Protestant social liberation paradigm that embraces the Left’s every political cri de coeur as an urgent Gospel imperative while largely ignoring/disbelieving traditional Christian concepts of evangelism, discipleship and personal holiness. As president of the National Council of Churches in the 1990s he helped turn Holy Week and Easter into a mobilization against the new Republican Congress, as just one example of countless now mostly forgotten church political advocacies. That church council is now comatose, and so too is most of liberal Protestantism, including especially Talbert’s former California-Nevada Conference, plus its fast draining Western Jurisfiction, which includes only about 2% of United Methodism. American United Methodism has lost nearly 40% of membership, while its most liberal regions have lost over 50%.
The Charlotte same sex rite is aimed at next month’s General Conference in Portland, where global United Methodism will again, as every four years since 1972, vote on church teaching about marriage and sexual ethics. The conversation now includes transgenderism, plus occasional references to polyamory, and the assumption that Christian teachings about chastity and celibacy, perhaps monogamy, are irrelevant. More broadly there is the embrace of Gnostic notions about imagination and desire trumping physical reality and objective truth. Self-actualization replaces self-denial.
Thanks to the growing global church, especially Africa, the General Conference will likely reaffirm traditional teachings. The USA church loses almost 100,000 members annually, while the African churches gain 250,000 annually. In recent years, sexual liberals, realizing they can’t win legislatively, have advocated defiance of church law against same sex rites and clergy sexually active outside natural marriage. Charlotte is just the latest example. Talbert’s fans sacralize him for his service with Martin Luther King over 50 years ago and equate their cause with the Civil Rights Movement. But that movement assumed a constant Christian ethic that sexual liberation emphatically rejects.
Liberal caucus groups, planning “non-violent” disruption at the General Conference, hope chaos will shatter United Methodist policies. So the race is on. Will United Methodism, the largest of the historically Mainline denominations, follow the rest of Western liberal Protestantism, from Scandinavia to Australia, into accelerated decline by officially surrendering Christian orthodoxy? Or will it edge away from collapsing Mainline Protestantism and align with growing global orthodox Christianity, as Africans become a majority within the once nearly all USA membership denomination?
If the goal is both denominational survival and fidelity to catholic Christianity, the choice should be clear, if not, in our current cultural context, necessarily very easy.
Comment by the_enemy_hates_clarity on April 25, 2016 at 1:20 pm
How do the orthodox stop it, and why should we continue to fund it? Would not a concerted effort to withhold apportionments until these integrity-defying events stop (or receive consequences) be a smart move at this point?
In Christ,
The enemy hates clarity
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 25, 2016 at 5:19 pm
I would tend to think that hard and direct measures would surely be better than continuing to accommodate error for the sake of an illusory unity. The Wesley brothers would be horrified by this.
Comment by Duane Anders on April 25, 2016 at 9:52 pm
“Most of us have minds that are too narrow to embrace the whole range of truth, so we opt for a partial truth. Claim infallibility for our sect and excommunicate all others.” Bishop Richard Holloway
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 25, 2016 at 11:09 pm
“Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
‘I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.’
Therefore
‘Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.’
‘I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.'”
— The Apostle Paul to the Corinthians
“‘Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.’
Thomas said to Him, ‘Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?’
Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'”
–Jesus, to the Twelve, as related by the Apostle John
It would appear that Jesus and Paul disagree with former Bishop Holloway, ex-primate of the Scottish Episcopal Church, who is now an atheist as I recall.
I think I’ll stick with Jesus and Paul.
Comment by Gregg on April 26, 2016 at 5:30 am
I can’t do better than Jesus or St Paul, but let me add this to mix as well:
“If you believe what you like in the gospels and reject what you don’t like, then it’s not the gospel you believe in but yourself.” St Augustine.
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 11:03 pm
Gregg, when you use “Jesus” & “Paul” in the same breath, you are confusing apples & prunes, as I show at http://LiberalslikeChrist.Org/Christlike vs
http://LiberalslikeChrist.Org/PaulvsAll
Comment by Gregg on April 30, 2016 at 10:08 am
Rayosun – I’m not confused at all.
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 30, 2016 at 3:26 pm
Correct. Ray is simply proving your point. We should thank him.
Thanks for proving Gregg’s point Ray.
Comment by DanH on May 1, 2016 at 1:19 pm
Nope, there is no Paul-less Christianity. If you throw Paul away, you’re no Christian. If you think Paul wasn’t inspired by God, then please prove to us that you are inspired by God, and good luck with that.
Comment by Ray Dubuque on May 4, 2016 at 10:17 am
Christian Conservatives claim to believe that all of Scripture is equally inspired by God. That would apply especially to their favorite Bible author, Paul, who gave the following perfectly clear instructions, regarding obedience to one’s political leaders (no matter how evil they may be), in his
“Letter to the Romans” 13:1–7
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience.
For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them–taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. ”
All of those who really believe that this passage is inspired and inerrant have no choice but to support “the divine right” of tyrants like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, Castro, Milosovich, Saddam Hussein and all the other monsters to stay in power for as long as God allows. Far from allowing anyone to try to remove such rulers, this “Word of God” according to Paul compels “Christians” to respect and obey such rulers : “there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. . . Therefore, whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed.” Paul doesn’t allow for the slightest bit of “interpretation”. He drives home his point over and over again, that we should treat any and all rulers as God’s very own appointees to whatever office they hold, be it governor, king, emperor, president, prime minister, secretary general, or Führer. No “if’s”, “and’s” or “but’s” !
Comment by Ray Dubuque on May 4, 2016 at 10:23 am
We all know who’s RIGHT and who’s a heretic!
Comment by Brad F on April 27, 2016 at 5:41 pm
Sounds just like liberals. Guess who enforces speech codes on college campuses? It ain’t conservatives! You so-called “inclusive” progressives are the gold standard for intolerance.
Comment by Ray Dubuque on April 26, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Let’s get back to the good old days when at least the bible believing Christians in the South embraced ORTHODOX bible teaching, enjoyed their slaves with the blessing of their pastors and condemned homosexuality!
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 26, 2016 at 3:21 pm
Congratulations Ray. You didn’t get anything right. Perfect score.
Comment by Rayosun on April 28, 2016 at 10:01 pm
I guess you had to BE THERE, to hear The Alabama Conference of the Methodist Church proclaim in January, 1861:”African slavery is a wise, humane and righteous institution approved by God. ” *2
And the General Assembly of the Southern Presbyterian Church boast in 1864: “We have no hesitation in affirming that it is the peculiar mission of the southern church to conserve the institution of slavery and to make it a blessing to both master and slave.” And, in an 1862 sermon at Savannah, GA, Episcopalian Bishop Elliott actually condemned opposition to slavery as “presumptuous interference with the will and ways of God.”
sentiments which they justified by invoking “the Word of God” as proclaimed by “St.Paul” :
[ Titus 2:9–10 ]
“Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.”
[ Ephesians 6: 5–8 ]
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free.”
[ I Cor. 7: 21–24 ]
“Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. Even if you can gain your freedom, make use of your present condition now more than ever. For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of human masters. In whatever condition you were called, brothers and sisters, there remain with God.”
[ 1 Tim. 6:1–5 ]
“Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties.
Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth.” Paul is not the only biblical source for “terrible texts” of course. Another favorite source of such texts for Conservatives is Leviticus 25:44–46 , where we find the following:
“As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. ”
and Exodus 21:20, which adds:
“When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.”
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 29, 2016 at 12:21 am
Trying to change the subject, are you?
You didn’t apparently read Jeremiah 34:8-22:
“The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his male servant, and every man his female servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that no one should make bondservants of them, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his male servant, and everyone his female servant, go free, that no one should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore Yahweh’s word came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, Yahweh, the God of Israel, says: I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn’t listen to me, neither inclined their ear. 15 You had now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: 16 but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore Yahweh says: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth. I will give the men who have transgressed my covenant, who have not performed the words of the covenant which they made before me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between its parts; the princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, who passed between the parts of the calf; I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of those who seek their life; and their dead bodies shall be for food to the birds of the sky, and to the animals of the earth. Zedekiah king of Judah and his princes will I give into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of those who seek their life, and into the hand of the king of Babylon’s army, who have gone away from you. Behold, I will command, says Yahweh, and cause them to return to this city; and they shall fight against it, and take it, and burn it with fire: and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation, without inhabitant.”
And so it was that Judah was destroyed, because it didn’t obey God’s command. They had forgotten the restrictions the Mosaic code placed on slavery. You’ve very selectively quoted from the Mosaic code, and failed to note an important distinction between the slaves of the Mosaic code and those of the African slave trade — the Mosaic code didn’t envision African chattel slavery. It was not a part of the world of the children of Israel. Indeed, slaves who had fled their masters weren’t to be re-enslaved or otherwise oppressed, as the is clearly stated in Deuteronomy 23:15-16:
“You shall not deliver to his master a servant who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with you, among you, in the place which he shall choose within one of your gates, where it pleases him best. You shall not oppress him.”
You must not be familiar with Exodus 21:16 either:
“He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”
This is a condemnation of the kind of slavery represented by the African Slave Trade.
I challenge you to find a single verse in the Old Testament where Israelites were commanded by God to make people slaves. Yes, there were regulations regarding slaves, just as there were regulations regarding divorce. Here is what Jesus said regarding those divorce laws, as recorded in Matthew 19:1-9:
‘When Jesus had finished these words, he departed from Galilee, and came into the borders of Judea beyond the Jordan. Great multitudes followed him, and he healed them there. Pharisees came to him, testing him, and saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?”
He answered, “Haven’t you read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall join to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?’ So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, don’t let man tear apart.”
They asked him, “Why then did Moses command us to give her a bill of divorce, and divorce her?”
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it has not been so. I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries her when she is divorced commits adultery.”’
The Mosaic code did not command slavery any more than it commanded divorce. Jesus also confirmed the Genesis account of the first man and woman, and condemned homosexual perversion, by these same scriptures.
Your citations of Paul are misleading. After all, Paul said in Galatians:
“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.”
Both slave and master were equally Christian. This is very different from the chattel slavery of the 19th century. In Colossians Paul wrote:
“Masters, give to your servants that which is just and equal, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.”
and in Ephesians:
“Servants, be obedient to those who according to the flesh are your masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as to Christ; not in the way of service only when eyes are on you, as men pleasers; but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men; knowing that whatever good thing each one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is bound or free. You masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with him.”
Ray Dubuque’s post — and for all I know, you are the same person, “rayosun” — got it completely wrong on two counts.
One was false equivalency, combined with anachronism. Different kinds of slavery, in different times, with different rules. The kind of slavery practiced in the New World, including 18th and 19th century America, was not the slavery in the Bible, and wasn’t practiced in accordance with the rules for slavery set out in scripture. There is another false equivalency — having black skin, or being born in Africa, or descended from Africans, has no equivalency with sexual perversion whatsoever. God punished Judea for slavery. He punished Sodom for homosexual perversion. By this we know God’s true character.
The second problem is the genetic fallacy. Rather than address the problem of a local UMC church violating the Bible and its own denomination’s rules, you and Ray (or perhaps just you) try to smear the modern UMC with slavery, like a crooked politician trying to deflect a reporter’s questions by making snide remarks about the media. You are just avoiding the real issue.
In any event, not all Christians in the American South supported slavery. Not all Christians in the North supported abolition of slavery. People on both sides of the slavery issue misquoted and misused scripture, some to support a system that wasn’t Biblical at all, some to bring about a bloodshed that wasn’t Biblical either. And 19th century slavery in America has nothing to do with 21st century gay marriage in the UMC.
You haven’t come up with anything that supports Melvin Talbert’s actions. He broke the rules.
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 10:26 pm
You’re right,Mark, to point out that the OLD Testament is better than Paul on the issue of slavery. There’s not “a single verse in the Old Testament where Israelites were commanded by God to make people slaves.”
In http://WhatKindofGod.org,however, I show that he had people KILLED, rather than ENSLAVED! Are you happy now?
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 30, 2016 at 3:13 pm
Paul never said Christians were commanded to make slaves either, Ray. You are engaging in the classic logical fallacy of cherry-picking. In fact, you seem prey to many logical fallacies. Those who cannot bear the truth are rarely restrained by reason, and you seem proof of this Ray.
Paul said plainly that slaves should obtain their freedom if they could, but they shouldn’t worry because they were Christ’s freedmen already. And what did Paul write to Philemon Ray? If a slave-owner, who is a Christian, must treat his slave, who is also a Christian, as his brother, and no longer as a slave, then how can the kind of slavery you condemn even exist?
“Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon, our beloved fellow worker, to the beloved Apphia, to Archippus, our fellow soldier, and to the assembly in your house: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always, making mention of you in my prayers, hearing of your love, and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints; that the fellowship of your faith may become effective, in the knowledge of every good thing which is in us, in Christ Jesus. For we have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother. Therefore, though I have all boldness in Christ to command you that which is appropriate, yet for love’s sake I rather beg, being such a one as Paul, the aged, and now a prisoner also of Christ Jesus. I beg you for my child, whom I have fathered in my bonds, Onesimus, who once was useless to you, but now is useful to you and to me; I am sending him back. You therefore receive him, that is, my own heart, whom I wanted to keep with me, that in your behalf he might minister to me in the bonds of the gospel. But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will. For perhaps he was therefore separated from you for a while, that you would have him forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, specially to me, but how much rather to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. If then you count me a partner, receive him as you would receive me. But if he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, put that to my account. I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it (not to mention to you that you owe to me even your own self besides). Yes, brother, let me have joy from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in the Lord. Having confidence in your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even beyond what I say. Also, prepare a guest room for me, for I hope that through your prayers I will be restored to you. Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.”
If Paul had advised slaves to revolt against their masters, you would condemn him for violence. Paul doesn’t not advise revolt, and you condemn him for that. You are a double-minded man, Ray, and we know what God has said about such persons:
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, without any doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed. For let that man not think that he will receive anything from the Lord. He is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.”
You doubt God, Ray, and that is your curse. The scriptures are meaningless babble to you unless you are prepared to place your faith in God. If you insist on judging God by your own opinions, the Bible might as well be a cipher, and the best you will able to manage is to read your own ideas into it, and ignore anything that doesn’t suit you.
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 26, 2016 at 3:22 pm
uh no those were PROGRESSIVE democrats like you who lied about the bible in order to dehumanize people
kind of like you do with unborn babies today
oh and homosexuality is not inborn like race
sorry
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 10:32 pm
Glen, an “unborn baby” is like an “undead corpse”, i.e. a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS. It’s no more a “baby” before birth than it is a toddler, a teen-ager, or a “millenial’! But you pro-lifers can’t use the CORRECT language, because you wouldn’t get anywhere without the dramatic RHETORIC!
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 29, 2016 at 10:42 pm
what laughable BS ‘it’ is human from conception
and you’re fine with cutting a hole in a unborn babie’s head 5 minutes before birth and sucking out it’s brains
Mengele would agree with you
Comment by Ralph Weitz on May 1, 2016 at 1:35 pm
Listen to expectant women talk, “I felt the baby move.” “…kick.” “Do you know the gender of your baby?” As far as getting language right, I’ll let the Mayo Clinic speak on development, at week five, “Your baby’s heart and a primitive circulatory system will form in the middle layer of cells — the mesoderm. This layer of cells will also serve as the foundation for your baby’s bones, muscles, kidneys and much of the reproductive system.” The Mayo Clinic uses the word “baby” from that point onward.
Comment by Rayosun on May 1, 2016 at 10:53 pm
Listen to mothers refer to their 40 year old “children” as “my baby”. And what does PROVE? And you think the Mayo clinic is speaking “technically” in your examples, and that they would argue that way among other scientists? Give me a break!
Comment by DanH on May 1, 2016 at 1:43 pm
The people who think that being refused a wedding cake is some kind of global crisis are pretty much the gold standard for “dramatic rhetoric.”
Comment by Rayosun on May 1, 2016 at 11:38 pm
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e59fbd33e97f01e7ba3f2d4ec0d0b9d4755666ff4ba8a8e9c6116d412e2ca0a8.png
How can anyone get away with so many vicious murders in this country?
Comment by johnmcadams on April 29, 2016 at 7:34 pm
So you believe the Bible is nonsense. At least you’ll admit that it condemns homosexuality, unlike some of your liberal cohorts.
And you don’t seem to differentiate between the Bible accepting slavery as an existing institution, and wanting it as a positive good.
I suppose you believe Paul should have told slaves to kill their masters and stage a slave revolt. Spartacus tried that. How did that turn out?
Paul also told slave owners that both they and the slaves had a master in heaven, and there was no partiality with him.
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 10:35 pm
I don’t INTERPRET what Paul supposedly said. Anyone who reads my post above can see that I QUOTE PAUL’s OWN WORDS, so that people can see for themselves what he actually taught!!!
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 30, 2016 at 2:51 pm
Then why didn’t you quote Philemon? Half-lies are still lies Ray.
Comment by Rayosun on May 3, 2016 at 9:25 pm
If, Mark Brooks, you are accusing me of a “half-lie” simply because I emphasized FOUR quotes where Paul SUPPORTED slavery and didn’t mention Philemon where Paul didn’t support slavery quite as strongly, then I will confess to ONE/5th of a lie at most, IF YOU confess to FOUR/fifth’s of a lie!!!!
Comment by Mark Brooks on May 3, 2016 at 10:56 pm
Now you are telling plain lies. Paul told Philemon to treat Onesimus like a brother. That means that he wasn’t Philemon’s slave anymore, but his brother in Christ.
I know why you didn’t cite Philemon, Ray. Not that anything you quoted from Paul supported slavery. Did Paul command Christians to buy and sell slaves? Did Paul commend slavery? No, he did none of these things.
You don’t know Truth, and so the truth cannot set you free Ray.
Comment by pastoredsmith on April 30, 2016 at 9:29 am
Check your history, Ray. It was Christians and morality that ultimately abolished slavery. The church has always had those in its ranks that live deviant lives. Always will. That is the price of living in a fallen world.
As to the Bible being “OK with?” The answer is clearly NEITHER ONE. The Bible condemns slavery and homosexuality. Clearly. Period.
Comment by Rayosun on May 3, 2016 at 9:48 am
Pastor Ed,
You’re one of the reasons that Christian clergy are held by so many in bad repute.
I’ve already provided several instances in which PAUL in particular clearly CONDONES slavery, from my http://JesusNoRepublican.Org/PaulvsAll page .
Yet, you continue to DENY the plain TRUTH, and then claim that “The Bible condemns slavery. Clearly. Period.” If so, WHEN & WHERE ?
Comment by Rayosun on May 3, 2016 at 11:14 am
Pastor Ed,
You are a fine person to tell me “Check your history, Ray. It was Christians and morality that ultimately abolished slavery”
I’ve studied the matter extensively and even published a web page about the subject, sh https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0dd3bdc56c019def761fcdcb9d1565357c6e30057e471b00b244ce051d26402c.jpg ow how shameful the traditional church’s role was on SLAVERY : http://jesuswouldbefurious.org/Church&slavery.html .
How many of today’s METHODISTS who are the most ardent opponents of the liberation of GAYS today are descendents of the Methodists who opposed the liberation of African Americans a few generations ago ?!?
The Alabama Conference of the Methodist Church even proclaimed in January, 1861: “African slavery is a wise, humane and righteous institution approved by God.”
Comment by Duane Anders on April 25, 2016 at 9:49 pm
I support Bishop Talbert, I am an evangelical serving a growing UMC in the Wesren Jurisdiction. It’s time to love all. It’s time to let clergy serve their entire communities. Love God, love self, love others! Grace and Peace
Comment by Jonathon Hunt on April 25, 2016 at 9:57 pm
We can love all without going against God’s word or the Discipline you took an oath to uphold.
Please explain how same sex marriage is biblical and in accordance with God’s design for humanity.
Comment by Andreas Kjernald on April 26, 2016 at 7:16 am
I don’t think you understand what an evangelical is.
Comment by Duane Anders on April 26, 2016 at 10:03 am
I am a person of the good news of Jesus Christ.
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 26, 2016 at 3:23 pm
no actually you’re not
Comment by Duane Anders on April 26, 2016 at 4:44 pm
http://lenwilson.us/top-25-fastest-growing-large-umc-2015/
I serve # 15
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 26, 2016 at 5:11 pm
and what does that matter? you’re not a christian, you embrace that which the bible condemns…
Romans 1
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Comment by Duane Anders on April 26, 2016 at 6:26 pm
Love God, love self, Love others. No judgement needed.
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 26, 2016 at 7:54 pm
Jesus said to judge
John 7:24New King James Version (NKJV)
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
Paul said to judge
1 corinthians 5
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.
you tell people homosexuality is ok, in other words you hate people and want to see them damned to hell just so you can be politically correct
Comment by Brad F on April 27, 2016 at 5:42 pm
And here you are, judging people who aren’t like you.
Hypocrite much?
Comment by Rayosun on May 2, 2016 at 12:19 am
“you’re not a christian, you embrace that which the bible condemns…”
like those who divorce and remarry, or those who don’t observe the sabbath WHICH GOD TOOK MUCH MORE SERIOUSLY THAN WE DO: See
http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/sabbathobservance.html . https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26ace9d7cc6f844dfb7b7276735dabd025246e687a4c68d11eea977e5d564088.png
Comment by Glen from the mail room on May 2, 2016 at 7:51 am
uh the bible allows for divorce, sorry
as far as the sabbath
colossions 2
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Comment by Rayosun on May 3, 2016 at 9:33 am
What would conservatives DO without their conservative Paul to counter LIBERALS https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0708042f8e0785aa2714317a7a8e8cf2645a0fc2f1595877763f66a525e2fd3d.jpg LIKE CHRIST?
See http://JesusNoRepublican.Org/PaulvsAll.html VS. http://LiberalslikeChrist.Org.
Comment by Glen from the mail room on May 3, 2016 at 9:43 am
I don’t like your liberal god in your own image ‘christ’
Comment by David Goudie on April 26, 2016 at 10:19 pm
Though it’s really a side note…number 15 is Mansfield Tx … I could not find your name under the staff there.
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 26, 2016 at 3:23 pm
What do you think that good news is, Duane?
Comment by Namyriah on April 27, 2016 at 6:30 pm
Your conference and jurisdiction continue to lose members, so the “evangelical” thing doesn’t seem to be working.
Funny about “inclusive” churches, no one wants to be included.
Comment by Duane Anders on April 27, 2016 at 7:14 pm
http://lenwilson.us/top-25-fastest-growing-large-umc-2016/
I serve #15
Comment by Namyriah on May 3, 2016 at 2:44 pm
How sad that you have nothing better to do as a supposed minister of the gospel than to visit evangelical blogs and extend your middle finger. Whatever that coven of progressives is paying you is way too much. Other than promoting sodomy and feminism and telling people to reduce their carbon footprint, you characters have nothing going on (well, other than hating evangelicals).
Enjoy your post-Christian church, while you can. I’m happy to watch them die.
Comment by Namyriah on April 27, 2016 at 6:22 pm
I think he knows exactly what he is doing, hijacking the name the same way progressive hijacked the name “Christian.” Anyone who thinks “the good news of Jesus Christ” means approval of sexual deviates is someone using the church to push his own personal agenda.
Comment by Duane Anders on April 26, 2016 at 10:08 am
Biblical Marriage
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 26, 2016 at 3:45 pm
Biblical marriage.
“The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.
Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, ‘Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’
And the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.’ Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
And Adam said:
‘This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.’
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
Genesis 2:8-24
“The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and
said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.’
They said to Him, ‘Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?’
He said to them, ‘Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.'”
Matthew 19:3-9
That is Biblical marriage Duane.
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 10:51 pm
Because “That is Biblical marriage Duane”, we conservative Christians idolize leaders like Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich who have been each divorced twice and loved that “Defense of Marriage Act” that Rep. Bob Barr authored. Being married FOUR time really made HIM an authority!
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 30, 2016 at 2:49 pm
Boy, you love that genetic fallacy, don’t you Ray? If you knew what truth is, you wouldn’t find it necessary to mock and lie about the people who do.
Comment by Rayosun on May 2, 2016 at 12:10 am
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41b7007a45a254cda96e999116adfde286688c71bd4ec26bc396ac14e30172b9.jpg
Comment by johnmcadams on April 29, 2016 at 7:43 pm
Your position seems to be that if God, in the era of the Old Testament, failed to overturn all the customs and practices of the time, and immediately institute everything we today believe to be right, that the Bible is nonsense.
A more mature view is that God has always had to work with imperfect people, and had a plan to move them toward Godly behavior. But given free will, the plan took some time to work out.
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 10:45 pm
Isn’t it funny how “heterosexuals” are so concerned about the sins of those who aren’t heterosexual? I wonder what Jesus would think of such people!
Comment by David Willard on August 6, 2016 at 10:20 pm
How did that turn out for them? I mean going against God’s will? Look it up, smarty.
Comment by Ella Pauline on April 26, 2016 at 11:08 am
For me, two quotes from Oswald Chambers come to mind when someone proposes acceptance of same gender relationships as fulfilling our command to ‘love one another”:
“God so loves the world that he hates the wrong in it. Do I so love men and women that I hate the wrong in them? Most of us love other people for what they are to us instead of for what God wants them to be.”
“Unless my relationship to God is right, my sympathy for [people] will lead me astray and them also; but when once I am right with God, I can love my neighbor as God has loved me. How has God loved me? God has loved me to the end of all my sinfulness, the end of all my self-will, all my selfishness, all my stiff-neckedness, all my pride, all my self-interest; now He says I am to show to my fellow men the same love.”
Comment by Dan on April 26, 2016 at 1:07 pm
“love self” !? Ruh roh – heresy alert, your Pelagianism and self-centered Adoptionism are showing. And since when did love all equate to affirm and celebrate all?
Comment by Duane Anders on April 26, 2016 at 4:42 pm
Oh Dan…read the Shema or as Jesus called it the great commandment.
Comment by Dan on April 27, 2016 at 7:14 am
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.”
I don’t see “love self” here unless you are equating man with God which would be another heresy.
Comment by Charles Horton on April 30, 2016 at 4:18 am
I like what you are trying to say Duane. Just remember that serving the entire communities includes teaching about God when it’s possible, about a God who doesn’t condone sin. We love others, and as followers of Jesus we don’t condone sin. Jesus didn’t, God didn’t, and neither should we. Remember the woman caught in the act? Jesus’ graciousness came through when he said both that her sins were forgiven and that she should go on about her life and sin no more. You can’t pretend this forgiveness followed by correction is not a part of Jesus’ gospel.
Comment by Rayosun on May 1, 2016 at 11:59 pm
If you want the church to come down hard on homosexuals on the ground that the church believes in “a God who doesn’t condone sin” then when is the church going to stop condoning all the DIVORCING that is going on constantly? Jesus never said A WORD about homosexuality, but came down hard against DIVORCE.
And the Bible says that God took the observance of the Sabbath so seriously that he made it clear that it was an ETERNAL commandment and clearly and repeatedly called for the DEATH PENALTY for those who didn’t obey it.
See http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/sabbathobservance.html .
Is the reason heterosexuals care so much about homosexual morality is that it doesn’t impinge on THEIR OWN LIVES, while they blithely IGNORE commandments that DO AFFECT themselves? Humm.
Comment by Charles Horton on May 2, 2016 at 10:38 pm
Ray, I don’t want the church to come down on anyone. (I was
talking about the behavior of homosexuality, not the people doing it.) God has reserved that kind of thing for himself. But regarding the link you’ve presented between homosexuality and divorce, and those who don’t condone H but condone D, you make a good point. A real life example of your point is Gene Robinson, the Episcopalian bishop who divorced his wife who gave him 2 children and then “married” a man – 2 huge steps away from God by a Christian minister. About 2 years ago, he “divorced” the man he “married”. What a mess that calls itself Christian!
But it’s a big stretch to make homosexuality and divorce as
peas in the same pod. Regarding divorce, God never intended that a man and a woman divorce, but he allowed it – it’s written into Old Covenant law. And while Jesus confirmed that Moses allowed for divorce, Jesus taught that from the beginning a man and woman in marriage should remain married for all their life. Nowadays, most people who divorce do so only once or twice during their entire
lives. It is a long and tormented process. Yet many marriages have been saved through counselling with a minister or marriage counselor. I doubt that there are more than a tiny handful of ministers that condone divorce. Like Moses, they may recognize a very difficult situation, but most ministers view divorce with sadness and grief, and certainly don’t condone divorce as something a
person could repeat over and again whenever they felt like it.
Regarding homosexuality, both the OT and NT have things to say about the practice. In the OT, it’s an “abomination”. In the NT, it, along with many other sins, it is something about which the Bible tells us that God’s wrath is stirred. I’m sure you know the list of sins in Romans 1, with homosexuality at the top of the list. A person who engages in homosexuality does so over and over again and enjoys it. A couple who divorce do so once or maybe twice in their lifetimes because of a difficult situation is a far cry from two same-gendered people satisfying themselves during momentary passion over and
over for the rest of their lives.
In your comparison, it seems like you are saying that Christian ministers are perfectly OK with divorce. I doubt that a lot. Only a
very rare Christian minister would actually desire that. But regarding
homosexuality, now we have many ministers saying “homosexuality – AOK go for it,” and the people do their sin over and over and over again thinking God approves. The Bible begins by teaches that God does not approve of divorce, but puts up with it when 2 people just can’t get along (OT). Yet the Bible finishes it when Paul says “if you 2 can’t get along, then live separately and don’t remarry” (NT). But it also teaches that God is clearly against homosexual practice (along with all sins , such as those in Romans 1).
So, the Bible really does teach that God does not approve of either homosexuality (the behavior) or divorce. And as far as our own selves are concerned, if we can’t forgive either person involved in these things, God will not forgive us. So, as Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments,” and this we Christians try to do. And in the process, we strive to ‘love the sinner, not the sin’. 6 little words that require a mountain of God’s justice, faith, and mercy, for which we must ask him to give us.
There’s plenty to be said about the Sabbath, some other
time.
Comment by w.a. on April 26, 2016 at 4:09 am
Everywhere the same. Here in Germany several State Churches of the Lutheran and Reformed branches of the EKD (Union of the protestant state churches) have in the last Month confirmed the allowance to perform homosexual marriages. Pastors with conscience problems have to perform such marriages in 5 Years without any excuse.
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 26, 2016 at 9:40 am
Christian churches being taken over by non-Christians is an old problem, unfortunately. In Massachusetts in the late 18th and early 19th century, a group called Unitarians crept into the pulpits of the Congregationalists and took over the buildings and property of what had been the established Reformed church of the state. The Christians were essentially thrown out of their own denomination. That was the foundation of what is now called Unitarian-Universalism. The United Church of Canada has an openly atheist minister in Toronto; granted that dead-branch church fell long ago, so badly in fact that they are having trouble figuring out how, or even whether, to remove her credentials. Once you have a “church” where being an open atheist doesn’t disqualify you as a minister, what’s the point of them even claiming the name of Christian? That’s the children of the Enemy do. They claim the name of Christian, or Evangelical, or both, but they mean different things by them than what God does, assuming they even really believe in Him.
“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. ”
–Jude 3-4
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 26, 2016 at 3:21 pm
the church of Laodicea has no future, it doesn’t end well…
Comment by Charles Horton on April 30, 2016 at 4:10 am
I would say that is partly true, for Jesus did say of Laodicea, “…you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and
naked.” That sounds like many of today’s progressive Christians who have become blinded by their rejection of God’s and Jesus’ teaching about what is righteous
and what is unrighteous. But there IS hope for them if they listen to their Savior: “I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I
rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I am! I
stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Listen up, all you liberals who mistakenly think that God’s love condones homosexual behavior, and think through each phrase in the quotes above. The one who can save you tells you right here that he wants to save you, but if you reject him and what
he teaches, he will reject you. Don’t let that happen. He is greater than we are and can even raise the dead to life. Trust in this one and repent, and return to the faith originally given to all the saints, to those who care to follow Jesus in all their ways.
Comment by Glen from the mail room on April 30, 2016 at 8:33 am
SO true!
Comment by JulianandHeather Law on April 26, 2016 at 8:15 pm
Don’t those who wish to change the BOD on this issue ever wonder if their time could be better spent elsewhere? Sometimes it is nice when an issue is settled and we leave it alone. How much time, energy, and resources have been spent on the marriage issue? How many friendships have been broken over this issue? Has this not been settled for some time? Let’s move on to that which is important and demands our attention. Sure, marriage is important, but it needs to be settled. One man, one woman, what’s the big problem here?
Comment by Rayosun on May 2, 2016 at 12:08 am
How magnanimous of you, J&H, “Let’s all stop the fuss. Agree WITH US, and we can all live happily ever after! ” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/79090b7865d988fb5c79461946a24efe6effbe29080f53e23563bc28b71dc69f.png
Comment by apriluser on April 27, 2016 at 12:26 am
Unfortunately there is a radicalization not only in Islam but also in Christianity and the broader culture. There are those on the fringe that are radicalizing a growing vocal minority within and outside the church. That minority embraces the lie of sexual dysfunctions, in all of its variations, and they are coached to deal with those who oppose normalizing these dysfunctions. These recruits are waging war on sexual holiness. However, I am convinced that we are not fighting flesh and blood but powers and principalities…and spiritual forces of evil… So what’s one response? Pray. Pray as though your life depends on it.
Comment by Rayosun on April 29, 2016 at 10:21 pm
While liberal Christian clergy like Rev. Talbert and myself openly embrace “gay marriage” as the best choice for more most homosexuals, conservative clergy insist that homosexuals stick to the “traditional” choices open to them:
a) they can live the celibate life, like the Roman Catholic clergy wink, wink!
b) they can be “normal” and marry somebody of the OPPOSITE sex
( and ruin THAT person’s life, along with their own, and perhaps a child or two)
c) they can live a good, old-fashion promiscuous gay life;
or, if all else fails,
d) they can take the permanent remedy and kill themselves, as many do.
See
Comment by Joe on April 30, 2016 at 2:29 am
“wink, wink” even though RCC clergy are NOT disproportionately more likely to offend somebody than the background population and certainly not gay people.
Comment by Rayosun on May 1, 2016 at 11:47 pm
Not even the official Roman Catholic apologists are using that discredited excuse any more.
And if they did, I went through 15 years of “vetting” in order to become a priest MYSELF, and if the church can’t improve its odds of getting a more virtuous result than “the background population” as you say, then why on earth spend all that time AND MONEY, and get NO IMPROVEMENT! (P.S. I got out because I found that the higher up I went, the more corruption and hypocrisy I found. And I became a much happier, married UMC clergyman.)
Comment by Joe on May 3, 2016 at 12:44 pm
No, statistically RCC priests are NOOOT more likely to offend, however much you despise the RCC for being the rock. Your propaganda is just that. The Public, as opposed to private, school system in this country has a lot more reported AND validated claims of abuse.
Comment by Joe on May 3, 2016 at 12:44 pm
And I believe that it’s lower with respect to RCC priests.
Comment by Mark Brooks on April 30, 2016 at 3:20 pm
“What’s so bad with the liberal choice again?”
It’s a lie.
Comment by Chris on May 1, 2016 at 1:02 pm
Lots of people commit suicide, there is nothing to indicate that gays are more likely than anyone else. That’s just emotional blackmail, telling Christians that if we don’t affirm their lifestyles, they will kill themselves. That’s very adolescent to threaten suicide. I’ve never known any gay or lesbian to commit suicide, this is just urban legend, like the old hoax about women getting beaten on Super Bowl Sunday.
Comment by Rayosun on May 3, 2016 at 10:02 am
It’s no wonder that young Americans don’t want anything to do with “the Church” when they see representatives of that community DISMISSING THE PLAIN TRUTH “as “urban legend” :
“Suicide is the leading cause of death among Gay and Lesbian youth nationally. 30%
of Gay youth attempt suicide near the age of 15. Gays and Lesbians are
two to six times more likely to suicide than Heterosexuals. Almost half
of the Gay and Lesbian teens state they have attempted suicide more than
once.”
Suicide is the leading cause of death among Gay … – SPEAK http://www.speakforthem.org/facts.html
Comment by Dan on April 30, 2016 at 11:26 am
What an interesting discussion. I can’t wait for the fireworks to begin in Portland on May 10. I’m beginning to think that the opening song for General Conference should be AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell.” Absent a real presence of the Holy Spirit (and I don’t mean the “Good Vibrations” variant all the progressives espouse), the UMC is done for. I hope life can be brought back to those dry bones.
Comment by Wayne D. Worsham on May 2, 2016 at 9:32 pm
Melvin Talbert also believes in Replacement Theology. He believes Jerusalem should be given to the “Palestinians”.
Comment by Rayosun on May 4, 2016 at 1:57 pm
On May 3rd, Mark Brooks ( who posts often here, with the approval of many) accused ME of lying, when I quoted instances of Paul of Tarsus publishing statements supportive of slavery : “Now you are telling plain lies. Nothing you quoted from Paul supported slavery. . . You don’t know Truth, and so the truth cannot set you free Ray.”
Who is lying regarding INSTANCE # 4:
“Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties.
Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth.” [ 1 Tim. 6:1–5 ]
Comment by Rayosun on May 4, 2016 at 1:58 pm
On May 3rd, Mark Brooks ( who posts often here, with the approval of many) accused ME of lying, when I quoted instances of Paul of Tarsus publishing statements supportive of slavery : “Now you are telling plain lies. Nothing you quoted from Paul supported slavery. . . You don’t know Truth, and so the truth cannot set you free Ray.”
Who is lying regarding INSTANCE # 3 :
“Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. Even if you can gain your freedom, make use of your present condition now more than ever. For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of human masters. In whatever condition you were called, brothers and sisters, there remain with God.”[ I Cor. 7: 21–24 ]
Comment by Rayosun on May 4, 2016 at 1:58 pm
On May 3rd, Mark Brooks ( who posts often here, with the approval of many) accused ME of lying, when I quoted instances of Paul of Tarsus publishing statements supportive of slavery : “Now you are telling plain lies. Nothing you quoted from Paul supported slavery. . . You don’t know Truth, and so the truth cannot set you free Ray.”
Who is lying regarding INSTANCE # 2 :
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free.” [ Ephesians 6: 5–8 ]
Comment by Rayosun on May 4, 2016 at 1:59 pm
On May 3rd, Mark Brooks ( who posts often here, with the approval of many) accused ME of lying, when I quoted instances of Paul of Tarsus publishing statements supportive of slavery : “Now you are telling plain lies. Nothing you quoted from Paul supported slavery. . . You don’t know Truth, and so the truth cannot set you free Ray.”
Who is lying regarding INSTANCE # 1 :
“Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.” [ Titus 2:9–10 ]
Comment by Rayosun on May 5, 2016 at 11:05 am
Oh, for “the good old days” when the bible believing
Christians in the South at least embraced ORTHODOX bible teaching, enjoyed their slaves with the blessing of their pastors, and no one tolerated homosexuality!