Jesus the Stranger

Jesus the Stranger

Mark Tooley on September 9, 2021

Tooley: Hello this is Mark Tooley, President of the Institute on Religion and Democracy here in Washington D.C., with the pleasure today of talking to Professor Ken Collins of Asbury Seminary in Wilmore Kentucky, the foremost Wesleyan seminary in the world, many would say. And we’re going to discuss Ken’s new book, Jesus the Stranger, which just came out and has some very nice blurbs by well-known Methodist thinkers such as David Watson, Ben Witherington, and Joel Green. But we’re going to hear from the author himself about this book, what it’s exactly about and what new insights does it offer about Jesus. So, Ken, why did you write this book?

Collins: I wrote this book for a number of reasons, but one of them, the principal one, would be the Jesus I see out there in North American culture today is someone I don’t recognize. And that’s both within and without the church, that Jesus is far more beautiful, far more serious, than some of these popular misconfigurations. And that’s what they are, misconfigurations of Jesus that are out there, and so that’s why I decided to write this book.

Tooley: What are the most widespread misconceptions about Jesus in American Christianity today?

Collins: Yeah, I think part of our difficulty, whether from the left or the right, is that we have created a politicized Jesus. In other words, we can only see Jesus through our political categories. And for me, that’s always going to be a matter of reduction, whether again from the left or from the right. Who Jesus is and what He represents is far more than that. And so part of my journey here was to show that Jesus is far more beautiful than we have imagined because in this person, we see the revelation of God in a way that we might not expect and in a way that is refreshingly beautiful and transformative.

Tooley: And you strongly emphasize the suffering of Jesus throughout his earthly walk.

Collins: Yes, and that of course obviously is not a new topic, but in many of the things that I’ve read about Jesus, and I’ve done my homework, much of that focuses on the physical suffering of Jesus, which of course is very important. There was that movie not too long ago, The Passion of Christ, which in my estimation could be graded as a horror movie, it was so difficult to watch at points. I don’t think I would ever watch it again having seen it once. But, we tend not to go beyond much in terms of the physical suffering of Jesus, and I wanted to display the social, the psychological, the emotional, the personal suffering of Christ. And you can get at that when you see how Jesus relates to various groups that are presented in the pages of the New Testament, you know, ranging from His own family, who at one point thinks he’s insane, to religious leaders who think he’s a blasphemer. And so there are many scripts in the Gospels that have to do with the ostracizing, the rejection of Jesus, “He’s not one of us, we need to exclude Him.” So I get at the suffering of Jesus by paying attention to lots of the social dynamics that are going on in key relationships that he has with people.

Tooley: And what are some of those relationships in which He most suffers?

Collins: In which He most suffers? I think Jesus suffers of course at the hands of His own disciple, Peter, who on the one hand recognizes that He is the Son of God and is the first to publicly make that confession that “you are the Christ, the Son of God.” But I’m sure Jesus was disappointed, even pained, because of the amount of time Jesus had spent with Peter, that immediately after Peter makes that confession, he then, as Jesus explains exactly what kind of Messiah He is, Peter rejects that, you know, “may that never be,” Jesus talks about being despised and rejected and he’s talking about the cross and Peter just can’t accept that. And so what does Jesus say, in very forceful words, very strong words, but rightfully so? “Get thee behind me Satan.” Because Peter, though he had this great confession that you are the Christ, the Son of God, that you are the Messiah, he didn’t know what Messiah meant. He had all of these images of Messiah that were chock full of pride and sin and vainglory, and Peter had to be disabused of all that and it would take a blood spattered cross to do it.

Tooley: As you wrote this book Ken, how did you grow in your own spiritual maturity?

Collins: Yeah, I’ve already said to my class yesterday, we’ve already started up once again at Asbury, that this book has changed my life, it really has. It has made a difference. I am a much more peaceful person today, have a deep-founded peace, and it comes out of seeing the beauty of Christ and the beauty of holy law, which is very much a part of this story. I think Christ reveals God to us in His own person and His own activity, and we come to understand the beauty of God in terms of lowliness, in terms of meekness. In other words, in a way we might not have normally expected given discussions about God, because when people talk about God they mean the greatest, the highest, the most exalted, but what they normally do then is that they take all of their sinful, prideful, conceptions of what is great and they ascribe it to God, and Jesus turns that upside down. Because it is at Golgotha, precisely in that very dark place, in the context of mocking, pain, and torture, that the magnificent beauty of God’s love is revealed. And when you see that, and I think the centurion did see it, he was transformed by it. In other words, to get a glimpse of the extent, the height, the depth, the breadth, of the way that God loves us, and the extent that God wnet to reach is, it is simply overwhelming to see that and to appreciate such a love.

Tooley: And as you have shared with your own students, largely young students preparing for the pastor and wider ministry, how have they responded?

Collins: It’s still early in terms of response. The book has been out for only a few weeks right now, and lots of people have not fully read the book, because they’re taking my counsel in the introduction and they’re going basically a day at a time. So it’s going to take them, since there are 42 brief chapters, it’s going to probably take them 42 days to be finished. So lots of people haven’t finished the book yet. Those who have finished, and they are few in number at this point because the book just came out, they usually contact me, and I expect a contact by that point. Because by the time they get to the end of the book, especially the climax of the book — the book does have a climax — they want to talk. They want to say “wow, what, I wasn’t quite expecting that.” And so I think actually one of the things the book has done for me is to ask — and this I would say in terms of our audience, when you read the book — what chapter is the climax of the book? And that will tell us a lot about how people are reading this narrative of Jesus, and it will show us I think a lot about how they’re appropriating the gospel and how they understand who God is. And I’m just going to leave it at that, I don’t want to do any spoilers, I don’t want to spoil it for people.

Tooley: And as you say the book has only been out relatively briefly, but what do you imagine critics will say about your book?

Collins: Well first let me say that I’ve done my homework. Although this book is written for lay people, people in the churches, people in the pews, energetic pastors, I did my homework. Meaning that I did my work in New Testament studies, looked at these passages, found out what Biblical scholars were saying about these passages. I got into the Greek when necessary to make sure that I was reading and interpreting things properly, and so that has been very much a part of the process. To do that sort of thing. But I think it’s going to be hard, getting back to your question, I think it’s going to be difficult to criticize the book. And here’s why. Because what the book does in its basic narrative is to glorify Jesus Christ. So right away, you’re putting yourself as criticizing the work that glorifies Jesus Christ. Secondly, this book I think, in a way that would distinguish it from other books, shows the beauty of Christ in a very profound way. The beauty, the sheer beauty of holy love and who Christ is in this character is awesome, it’s incredible when you get a glimpse of that. And I think that getting a glimpse of that is transformative. And so the critics are going to have to be criticizing a book that does that. So I think in some respects, and I’m open to criticism for sure, I always want to improve, but I think the criticism will not be a basic thing the book does, but over some technical issues, maybe some New Testament technical issues that scholars will know about. And yeah I understand. But even there there’s room for debate, there’s room for difference, but I think this book has been a long time coming. It’s been very carefully put together. It’s structured in a certain way. It has a sequence. The narrative builds. So it’s that kind of book

Tooley: Ken, are there any particular books or thinkers who were especially influential in writing your own book?

Collins: This is rather interesting, but some 20th century theologians have been influential in terms of how I read Scripture. And then people like C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, who understand the power of language, the power of literature. I mean, when we talk about the Gospel, and we have a book that’s focused on the gospel because the good news is Jesus Christ, it’s not surprising that someone like a C.S. Lewis and a J.R.R. Tolkien was enamored with the gospel because it’s such a great story, it’s such a grand narrative, it’s the greatest story that’s ever been told or could ever be told. It is replete with funds of meaning that our own little lives, fractured as they are at times, are caught up in this grand narrative which is flush with meaning whereby we participate and enjoy those meanings as well. So people like C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and I think in saying that, that the power of language, the power of literature. One thing I worked hard at was to get the reader to be in the mode of a participant and not as one who makes their own cogitating mind the center, such that everything simply becomes an object. In other words, I’m going to read a book now, I’m going to get some information, this book is an object, I’ll read the text about Jesus. That would be a mistake. As a writer, I intentionally tried to write and structure the book so that you couldn’t approach it that way. That you have to approach this book as the grand narrative and story that it is, and then one becomes engaged, one becomes a part of this story. And the image that I’ve used in the introduction to describe this is of a curator in an art gallery who takes a number of paintings and forms a collection to create an exhibition. And that’s what I’ve done in this book, I’ve focused on Jesus in terms of his identity by having that identity come out of his relations with oppositional characters. So this is a very engaging sort of participatory narrative. And I think Mark you will appreciate that, although the basic theme of the book is about Jesus, there’s a second major narrative that goes on that speaks to our culture today, and it has to do with this issue of in-group out-group, socializatin, social groups, social media, ostracism, slander, character assassination, all of it. That is another theme that is developed throughout the book. I’m very attentive to that. So on the one hand it is focused on Jesus Christ in terms of His identity, seeing that identity emerge in the context of oppositional relationships, and see how Jesus emerges out of that. But then on a second level, it’s a reflection on us. It’s a reflection on groups, on tribes, on mobs, on in and out and the creation of the other. Someone who is deemed the other with all the scripts that surround that, I get into that in great detail, so the book actually functions on two levels. One, ostensibly about who Jesus is. Secondly, it’s a revelation of who we are. Because we get to understand ourselves better in our own inclusions, exclusions, as we live out our lives, and we get to see that and judge that against the backdrop of Jesus.

Tooley: And then finally Ken, someone who is not deep in the Christian faith but who is interested in reading your book and scans the table of contents. It might be a little intimidating that all this converges to the suffering of Jesus, the implication being we’re being invited to share in His suffering. How would you reassure someone who is intimidated or put off by all this talk of suffering?

Collins: That’s a very good question. Suffering is not the end, it’s not the goal, it’s not the last stop in the train station, it’s something that is along the way. I think there’s one line in the book that suffering is the cost that sinners require in the face of telling the truth. That, if one is oriented towards the Holy Spirit, which scripture refers to as the spirit of truth, one will suffer. I would ask that person, whether inside or outside the church, who is serious about learning truth and being open to what truth is, to go on a journey and explore, and find out for yourself, examine who Jesus is. See if what He says is so. He told us to do that, He told us to test and see if these things were true. I would offer that as we do that, and especially as we’re oriented towards truth, we will suffer. We will be rejected, we will be ostracized, and we will experience the kind of suffering that Jesus himself experienced. See, there’s a kind of Christianity out there that wants Jesus, but they don’t want the suffering of Jesus, and they certainly don’t want that in their lives. And I don’t see how that’s possible. But the point is that it’s not all about suffering, because that suffering is on the way to bliss, and it is bliss. It’s absolute bliss. Because it’s the presence of a God of holy love among us, transforming us, making us beautiful as God is beautiful, as Jesus is beautiful.

Tooley: On that uplifting note of bliss, thank you Ken Collins for discussing your new book, Jesus the Stranger: The Man from Galilee and the Light of the World. I’m sure there are listeners who will look forward to reading it

Collins: Thank you so much Mark.

  1. Comment by Another indictment on September 10, 2021 at 12:11 pm

    Maybe the author should have written this for clergy, since as interpreters of the Scriptures to their people they are responsible for making sure false images of Christ are not spread in the church.

    His suffering is a major part of the Gospel story, but since Jesus of Nazareth was also a human being there are other parts of His life and ministry on Earth that are discussed, or not known. Clergy need to make sure that the totality of what the Scriptures tell us is taught, and done in a proper manner for all people.

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