Global Methodism’s New Church

Comment by Reynolds on March 4, 2021 at 7:48 am

How do you arrive at the 2 million number for America. The default will be to stay and bishops and preachers will convince people to not vote. What right does laity have to force a church vote if the bishop does not want a vote or the preacher doesn’t want a vote. I think you underestimate the other side to run out the clock.

Comment by Pirate Preacher on March 4, 2021 at 9:40 am

Will there be steps in place for UMC members whose local church will or already has affirmed the progressive-left denomination to form a local church in advance of the official split? Starting anew will take time and organization. 50 years ago I was part of a group of 11 families who began a new UMC church. As I recall it took nearly two years to officially launch.

Comment by Loren J Golden on March 4, 2021 at 11:58 am

“Assuming, as I do, that the new Global Methodist Church will cohere…”
 
This is an enormous assumption and not something that should be taken for granted.  There are fault lines among self-identified Conservative/Traditionalists in the UMC regarding: (1) the final authority of Scripture (sola scriptura, the rule of faith in Evangelical Protestantism) v. the final authority of Scripture subsumed into a larger Christian Tradition (the rule of faith in Roman Catholicism); and (2) salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (the Gospel) v. salvation by a combination of faith and works (Pelagianism).  And substantial numbers of American Traditional Methodists hold to each of these positions.
 
If leaders in the Conservative/Traditional movement within American Methodism do not address these significant differences among their constituents, then within a few years, the Global Methodist Church will likely tear itself apart along these fault lines.

Comment by Orter.T on March 4, 2021 at 2:51 pm

In response to Loren Golden: “…the final authority of Scripture (sola scriptura, the rule of faith in Evangelical Protestantism) v. the final authority of Scripture subsumed into a larger Christian Tradition.”

As I have personally experienced it, the Bible does not have to be subsumed into tradition; they are not an either or proposition. It was the traditions of the church as contained in the400+ year old Heidelberg Catechism that literally opened up the Bible for me. Given the current chaos in the church landscape, if I had not been subsumed in Christian tradition with the understanding that I could appeal to the communion of saints of both the present and past, I would be in a world of hurt. It took both, including John Wesley, to undo the theological muddle that I was packing around after a lifetime of being a Methodist/United Methodist. My problem growing up and spending much of my adult life with the Methodist/United Methodist Church was not the historic liturgical worship I routinely participated in it was that the church failed to adequately answer the question, “What does all this mean for my life?” which is the exact same question that people asked John Wesley that caused him to launch Methodism.

Check out this article in support of both church tradition and the Bible: https://firebrandmag.com/articles/is-it-time-to-leave-the-riffraff-for-rome

I have absolutely no problem with being part of both the riff raff and church tradition!

Comment by Jeff on March 4, 2021 at 4:34 pm

Reynolds,
Your concern that the clerics and bishops will do their utmost to “run out the clock” and avoid a vote is well founded.

However it is my understanding that a congregation can force a church conference to be held over the objections of the pastor and/or conference.

Please see here: https://www.gracethroughseparation.com/the-agreement

in particular please refer to ARTICLE III.1.d, which says a church conference “shall” be held to vote within 60 days after your church council requests it. DS is obligated to schedule the conference. Of course your congregants need to manage your council to cause them to request the vote. 😉

Blessings
Jeff

Comment by Thomas F Neagle on March 4, 2021 at 5:39 pm

IT would be spectacular to see a large conservative Protestant denomination in addition to the Southern Baptist Convention.

Meanwhile, while all this dithering goes on, my church (PCA) is seeing a steady influx of new members fleeing liberal UMC churches. So the half million loss projected in the article is already occurring.

Comment by Brother Thom on March 5, 2021 at 5:09 am

There are a few points that need to be made here. First, there is no evidence the UMC is 13 million members strong, none. A year or so ago, I started asking folks in the UMC in both NC and VA, about their membership, giving units, and the actual average number in attendance on Sunday. Then I headed to the conference website to see what kind of numbers were being reported there. The number almost always was off by the hundreds and in some cases far more.

Here’s why charges all over the US gave up decades ago on trying to remove names from their roles. It’s just too difficult for many. The four-step process of first trying to find everyone on the rolls and ask them about their status as members is hard and time-consuming, second, comes the reading of names three years in a row and charge conference. So what happens is charges just keep reporting the same numbers to the conference year after year. Here are the first two examples that led me to look at this issue. First the charge we split from reports around 320 members every year, in reality, it’s less than 20 today. Another church in our area was on the conference rolls with its membership numbers even though the charge was forced to close several years earlier after several years of poor management from the conference down. This by the way would be the church the conference allowed to operate a tattoo studio out of an unused room at the church.

So my point is simply that if the UMC looked at hard numbers, in terms of current giving units that pay the bills, the actual number of US United Methodist is probably far below 9 million if that.

My last thought is another reality that isn’t discussed much if ever. According to the discipline, members of a local charge do not have a voice or vote in church decisions. Members in proper numbers can request a special charge conference, but the district superintendent is under no obligation to approve the request. Keep in mind that the membership of a charge has no say, voice, or vote on who serves as members of the administrative board. Moreso, the congregation has no say in who attends the annual conference.

One of the biggest lessons progressives learned over the past two years about these processes mentioned above is that while the internal to the bishop and DS selection of delegates will get them some of the votes they want at the conference, the reality is they are fake numbers. I say fake because traditionalists who have been represented by liberal delegates appointed by the bishop, have used their feet and their wallets to cast the only vote they have.

There are other fake numbers floating around the UMC, from fake membership numbers to fake delegates, and fake numbers reported to the IRS, there is much the Global Methodist Church can and should do to ensure the issues affecting the UMC today don’t affect the GMC tomorrow.

Comment by Gary Bebop on March 5, 2021 at 1:19 pm

We used to call the padded numbers “evangelical reporting” because it resembled the revival numbers reported by evangelical enthusiasts. Growing up with that cultural practice, I never accepted numbers as descriptions of reality but as aspirations. The numbers of countable Methodists is melting away. But let’s accept that fact and get on with the work.

Comment by John on March 5, 2021 at 9:02 pm

Brother Thom, the members of a charge do have a say in who serves on the Administrative Board–that is, if they speak up. Any member of the Charge Conference (pretty much composed just of the Administrative Board) can move that the Charge Conference be made a Church Conference… which would open up the voting to any and all members of the congregation. The Lay Leadership/Nominating Committee (chaired by the pastor) proposes its nominations to the Charge/Church Conference, but any nominations can be made from the floor of the conference. You just need to find an ally or two on the existing Board to change the Charge Conference to a Church Conference (under all but ridiculously oppressive circumstances most DS’s would encourage the motion)… and gather enough votes to support your nominees.

Comment by Brother Thom on March 6, 2021 at 4:45 am

John, the problem is the discipline provides no direct path for members of the congregation to be heard. The UMC operates in a complete dictatorial fashion. My hope is the GMC doesn’t follow this pattern. Members of a congregation shouldn’t need to know someone on the inside to be heard. A church I attended once had a new pastor arrive who announced at his first council meeting he was making some changes in the church and council. He insisted none of his dictates required a vote because the discipline says his way is the right way. When I pointed out the 2016 discipline didn’t match up with what he was saying, he switched gears and said the discipline is just a guide and nothing that has to be followed. This is the problem with liberals, they want it both ways and can switch teams on a dime.

Lastly, I’ll tell you that when members of the congregation who are paying the bills can’t speak at a council meeting because they don’t have “voice,” you can easily see churches fall into demise if left to poor decision-making.

Comment by Wayne on March 6, 2021 at 5:52 am

My hope is that the Global Methodist Church will not be a replacement theology church like it currently is and will support Israel and the Jewish people. We have “anglicized” Yeshua and forgot that Jesus was, is and will always be Jewish.
We can NOT support BDS. We can NOT support a two state solution in the Covenant land that God gave to the Hebrew people.

Comment by David on March 8, 2021 at 7:13 am

Well, there was an earlier “two state solution” known as Israel and Judah. Conflating the current State of Israel with the worldwide Jewish people is a bit of a stretch. Would you do that for any “Christian” country? The idea that early Israelites were oppressed lower class people in the Canaanite city states that revolted and literally took to the hills has had increased historical support over the years. Pagan idols can be found in nearly every stratum indicating it was likely never monotheistic. There are also verses where the Lord insists, “The land is mine” that contradict the verses where the land is given. Indeed the Israelites were called “strangers and tenants” suggestive that others might occupy the land at some point.

Comment by Wayne on March 8, 2021 at 6:24 pm

WOW. The UMC is in dire need of Sunday School lessons from the Bible. Israel and Judah were not two countries. They were the ALL Hebrews occupying the land that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob gave them. It is God’s land and he gave it to the Jewish people as an Everlasting One Way covenant. It will ALWAYS be their land. They have an unconditional ownership. Now, their occupation is conditional. Which is up to God.
The Cannananites were left in the hills by the Jewish people because they didn’t eliminate them as God told them to do. They instilled pagan idols. And so did the Jews. Thuse God allowed the Assyrians and then the Babylonians come and exile the Jews from their own land.
After the Babylonian exile the Jews have NEVER worshipped idols again.
God made one way covenats with his chosen people that he will NEVER break.

Comment by David on March 9, 2021 at 6:03 pm

It would seem that for most of history, the “promised land” was ruled by other parties. Do not forget that the Greeks, Romans, et al brought their religions into the area. Too many pagan things have been found in Israel for them to have been exclusively monotheistic. As for promises, we have, “I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. .” (1 Chron 7:16). Well, that “forever” did not last very long and indeed, the Dome of the Rock has stood there longer than the Temple ever did in total. It would seem the truth of the matter is the Lord giveth and taketh away.

Comment by Wayne on March 12, 2021 at 11:28 pm

Please revisit the Bible. Or refrain from comments.