Methodists vs Baptists

Methodists vs Baptists

on July 27, 2020

Virginia United Methodism has essentially shut down. A 100 page document crafted by church authorities outlines how local churches might some day reopen. Long after the pandemic is over, perhaps some congregation will have successfully navigated through that document. Anticipate the Second Coming, or at least United Methodism’s formal split, before many achieve that navigation.

So for the last month I’ve enjoyably attended a Southern Baptist church. Initially its congregation reconvened in its parking lot after worshiping only online during the pandemic. Fortunately it returned inside before the worst of Summer heat. Everyone is masked and carefully distanced. The sanctuary is very large and has a balcony. Socializing seems to be minimal.

The original congregation was elderly and dwindling. So the current young pastor, who grew up United Methodist, was dispatched to “replant” it. (I interviewed him here.) The operation seems to have been successful.  Congregants are overwhelmingly young, mostly families. At age 55 I’ve usually been the oldest person in the room by many years with possibly one exception.

It’s somewhat hard for a lifelong Methodist to adjust to Baptistry. There’s no liturgy, and the service lasts nearly two hours. There are several long and robust pulpit prayers by pastor and elders. There are several hymns, all of them wonderfully familiar and venerable. Surprisingly the Eucharist has been served several times over the past five weeks I’ve attended. Little sealed disposable cups with wafer and juice are distributed. The sermons, which are vigorous and rich with biblical content, are 40-50 minutes. Methodist worship is typically one hour with a 20 minute sermon.

Yesterday’s Baptist sermon, which was 50 minutes, was about Christian sexual morality. It was both adamant and tasteful, relying on theology familiar to orthodox Christianity in all major traditions. Sex is for husband and wife, no exceptions. It warned against temptation, from which Christians are to flee.

The roof did not collapse. Nobody screamed. Nobody ran for the doors.  Everyone seemed to listen attentively. The pastor cited both divine judgment and mercy. He warned against self righteousness and said he also must be careful. He’s publicly and bravely written about his own struggles as a younger pastor.

After the service I walked to a nearby restaurant. The neighborhood of upper middle class homes in northern Virginia included many yard signs and flags touting socially liberal messages. Yet this successfully replanted Baptist church is very traditionalist. So strange!

Not really. Churches and religions of all sorts generally only thrive when they challenge and exact high standards. Few people are impressed by or drawn to religions that expect little or merely echo talking points found in the surrounding culture. Religions typically decline or die not because they’re controversial but because they’re seen as boring or irrelevant. Methodism once appreciated this insight.

Over the weekend I discovered this delightful 1954 British movie about Methodism’s founder John Wesley. Local Methodist leaders complain to him that some Methodists are getting drunk and defying the Sabbath. Wesley says they must be admonished to improve or removed from the rolls. Early Methodism grew by expecting high standards. And it was controversial for doing so. The film portrays Wesley banned from pulpits and forced to preach in fields, defying bishops, facing down mobs. And his followers grew.

Lacking such verve, Methodism in America has deflated for nearly 60 years. In northern Virginia, where I’ve lived all my life, the collapse is especially visible. Once great churches are now empty. The church that was nearly the cathedral church of local Methodism when I was young now literally has no congregation. It’s now a rental space housing four thriving relatively new non-Methodist congregations in a supposedly secular area.

Recently I was telling the pastor of a large nearby Anglican church, which recently built a new sanctuary, that Anglican church planters in a few years in northern Virginia should be ready for many Methodist properties to become available after United Methodism’s anticipated schism. There are about 100 United Methodist churches in northern Virginia. About 90 will side with liberal Methodism and likely fewer than 10 will side with traditional Methodism. But those 5-10 conservative congregations will receive many refugees from the other 90 liberal-aligned churches. The ever shrinking numbers of liberal Methodism can’t sustain those 90 churches, which likely fairly quickly will close and merge down to 40-50 churches. Anglican and evangelical congregations looking to buy or rent property will have many opportunities.

Last week a longtime Methodist in northern Virginia phoned me. I was sharing some of the above info with him and he was surprised there weren’t more traditional Methodist congregations in the area. He said his own declining congregation had in a poll by 75% preferred liberal Methodism on sexuality issues. I replied that would be average in this area.  Pastors have not preached United Methodism’s official traditional standards and beliefs about new birth, sanctification and holiness. They have instead aligned with the surrounding culture. The fruit is half-empty church buildings with grim futures.

Despite the bad news for Methodism in northern Virginia, there’s no threat of my becoming Baptist. My convictions and habits remain Methodist. Whenever my local congregation, which has a traditionalist pastor, is allowed to reopen, hopefully before the End Times, I’ll gratefully be there.

And I’m looking forward to a time, after United Methodism’s split, when traditional Methodism will be free to plant new congregations and proclaim unpopular Gospel teachings that will challenge and engage new audiences.

  1. Comment by Lee Cary on July 27, 2020 at 9:55 am

    “And I’m looking forward to a time, after United Methodism’s split, when traditional Methodism will be free to plant new congregations and proclaim unpopular Gospel teachings that will challenge and engage new audiences.”

    Unfortunately, by the time the split officially happens, many of those who prefer “unpopular Gospel teachings” will have already found church homes elsewhere.

    In short, much of the Methodist herd will have self-culled by then.

    And, any new rendition of the old UM “connectional” system that retains any of the
    core hierarchical configuration (e.g., Bishops, appointments, DS’s, apportionments, boards/agencies), will not sell well.

    Can’t put new wine in old wineskins.

  2. Comment by Andrew Hughes on July 27, 2020 at 10:15 am

    From what has happened to other mainstream denominations it looks this analogy is coming to the UMC also.

  3. Comment by Reynolds on July 27, 2020 at 10:38 am

    It is sad to see the church leadership drive the numbers down with their liberal theocracy. I am amazed how orthodox churches have already opened and liberal churches have decided not to open. Once UMC splits, the liberal side we be happy in that it will take most of the churches since most people won’t vote or push to leave. However 20yrs later, WCA will have more in the pews than UMC

  4. Comment by Scott on July 27, 2020 at 11:10 am

    Our UMC church remains closed — and, quite frankly, it’s probably just as well. It has drifted liberal and now seems firmly planted in so-called progressive theology with our new pastor. I have continued to worship weekly — via Mass at the local Catholic Church, where the priest preaches a homily based upon scripture rather than a social justice dissertation based on popular convention. I, too, am looking forward to the eventual split in Methodism and am hoping that one of the local Methodist churches will be part of the WCA.

  5. Comment by Reynolds on July 27, 2020 at 12:10 pm

    If you want a local WCA, you will need to find other people and all join one church. When the vote happens if all orthodox are spread out you could lose the votes. It becomes a political game of vote counting

  6. Comment by Jeff on July 27, 2020 at 3:40 pm

    @Mark Tooley: you hope your Methodist congregation will reopen before the End Times… we’re IN the End Times, my friend! 😉 🙂 But seriously… Our experience is yours, inverted; our Methodist congregation is maybe 40-50% former Baptists and Baptist refugees from a local church disagreement. It’s like we got a transfusion of traditional blood! Baptists are way cool! With their outstanding grounding in Scripture, they’re like freeze-dried Christian concentrate. In GOD’s time the Holy Spirit fills ’em and reconstitutes ’em into fervent and tireless soldiers, leaders and evangelists for Christ. I mean that sincerely. Thank you Jesus and to GOD be the Glory!

    @Reynolds: Locally, we’re not 100% sure we’re still aligned with WCA… they were great out of the starting box, but they’ve gone a bit squishy of late. Seems they can’t decide if the Universalist Alphabet Idolaters are actual heretics to be rebuked, or just an “alternative expression of Methodism” to be “afforded respect and deference” (and most of UMC wealth and property). Also more than a few of our WCA elders are too busy kneeling to BLM and “critical theory” Marxism to remember that they must only kneel before Christ.

  7. Comment by Roger on July 27, 2020 at 5:16 pm

    I’m glad that you have stated a truth about our Methodist Pastors and at the same time was saddened by the truth of their neglect. The truth you stated was; ” Pastors have not preached United Methodism’s official traditional standards and beliefs about new birth, sanctification and holiness. They have instead aligned with the surrounding culture. The fruit is half-empty church buildings with grim futures.” Also they have (Philippians 3: 18 – 19 ) – – – – that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things. And (Timothy 1: 7 ) ” desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor wherof they affirm. (Timothy 1; 3 ) – – – – “charge some that they teach no other doctrine.” Methodist need to return to the traditional roots of our founding. Jesus said in his parable of the sower, some seeds sprouted but didn’t produce because they had no roots. This is where we are today.

  8. Comment by Gary Bebop on July 27, 2020 at 8:04 pm

    What’s this I’m hearing about WCA waffling on message? Mark, please check this out.

  9. Comment by John Cornell on July 28, 2020 at 6:37 pm

    Your article was most interesting – everything old is new again. If you drive through much of the mid-Atlantic states you’ll find a lot of little Methodist churches that date back to prior to the American Revolution. In many instances, those churches were originally Anglican/Episcopal churches. After the American Revolution, a large number of Anglican clergy went back to England as they didn’t want to be disloyal to the crown, leaving a church building and a congregation with no pastor. The American Methodists, being no fools, moved in and snapped up the congregations, making them Methodist churches.

  10. Comment by John Smith on July 29, 2020 at 8:57 am

    I’m beginning to think the Bishop doesn’t want the churches in Virginia to reopen given the strictures being imposed. It’s fun to conceive of theories about trying to squeeze out a given faction prior to the vote at the GC, etc but I think its just typical bureaucratic CYA gone wild. Someone might get sick, someone might sue us, someone might be offended, someone might be held responsible, someone might….

    I’m beginning to think fear is the dominant emotion of the UMC.

  11. Comment by Brad Pope on July 31, 2020 at 6:17 pm

    Says it all: “ Religions typically decline or die not because they’re controversial but because they’re seen as boring or irrelevant. Methodism once appreciated this insight.” irrelevant because there’s little to no distinction between the theology of cultural appeasement & culture itself. Why even go?

  12. Comment by David A Williams on July 31, 2020 at 7:48 pm

    I follow IRD religiously. Given Methodism’s roots in Anglicanism, why don’t you attend one of the many evangelical Anglican churches in your area?

  13. Comment by Tim Trogdon on July 31, 2020 at 8:15 pm

    Born and raised United Methodist. 50 years later, a happy orthodox Anglican.

  14. Comment by Thomas on July 31, 2020 at 8:54 pm

    Mark, Some of the UMC Charlottesville District churches aren’t that far from you. I think that you will find them to be more conservative. You could also participate in their online services until they reopen.

  15. Comment by Bill Lang on August 1, 2020 at 11:53 am

    The decline of the Methodist has been a long process which started in the mid-1800s seen in the Revival period which saw the emergence of the Wesleyan Church, the Free Methodist Church, the African Methodist Churches and others. Studies done by Robert Childs and John Peters are excellent sources outlining Methodism’s striving for a form of social legitimacy as well as acceptance as a main stream church seeking membership numbers.
    Even though there is some strains of revival the actions of the Bishops seem to favor the liberalization of the church.

  16. Comment by Tim on August 2, 2020 at 10:53 pm

    Amen to this:
    “I follow IRD religiously. Given Methodism’s roots in Anglicanism, why don’t you attend one of the many evangelical Anglican churches in your area?”

  17. Comment by c on August 6, 2020 at 3:28 pm

    Jumping in late to say that the 50 minute (or even longer) sermon and 2 hour service is very much a Capitol Hill Baptist Church thing and its sister and daughter churches, such as the one Mark is attending, do the same. There are a lot of Southern Baptist churches that have services that last anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half and sermons that are 30 minutes or less.

    As well, a sermon by Mark Dever (senior pastor of CHBC) or one of his associate pastors or a pastor he has trained is not the 3 easy points, give illustrations kind. You’re going to get lots o’ theology. I think it’s part of what makes those congregations successful: They’re not dumbing it down.

  18. Comment by Elizabeth A. Ellis on August 13, 2020 at 12:52 am

    We left our UMC because it is too liberal. I was a fourth generation Methodist. First we went to an Assembly of God Church, and left for several reasons, but the last straw was the church was painted black and grey because the pastor read in a magazine they were the IN colors and would draw more people to the church ??? People come to church initially because they want to learn about God. People do not come to church to hear what they already know. They also want support in their Christian walk.

    Now we have settled in a Baptist Church and quite like their tell it like it is with the messages being Biblical and singing of hymns. Before Covid, we had dinners for the homeless and picked up many who needed a ride in our church bus and van. We feel strongly about serving the community. If your church doesn’t reach out to the community, how can you get new members ?

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