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Barton Gingerich, Christianity, homosexuality, leadership, Michael Overman, polity, Reconciling Ministries Network, religion, RMN, United Methodist Church
A pro-LGBT caucus of the United Methodist Church (UMC) continues to blog on behalf of their cause. Last week, Reconciling Ministries Network (RMN) posted a particularly emotional piece about a pastoral ordination gone awry. Michael Overman, a Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary senior, shared the heartaches springing from his abandonment of the UMC ordination process. Earlier, he had left his Baptist church after declaring his identity as a gay man. After a six-year sabbatical from church, he attended Holy Covenant United Methodist Church by invitation. He soon found a home: “I was welcomed to the table as a broken but whole person, never asked to leave a part of myself at the door.”
During a gay pride parade in Chicago, Mr. Overman’s fellow church members recommended he attend Garrett seminary. At first, he was hesitant. He believed that his sexual orientation and his now-husband’s neo-pagan faith precluded him from ministry (presumably the ordained kind). Overman decided to enter seminary anyway and pursue United Methodist ordination. He came to recognize that, though his particular congregation does not see homosexual behavior as sin, the UMC official policy is that it is “incompatible with Christian teaching.” This confused Mr. Overman even more because he had “known gay clergy, gay partnered clergy, in our denomination.” “In order for me to be ordained in the UMC, I would quintessentially have to go into a professional, vocational closet,” he concluded. His district review committee essentially recommended he keep his marital status carefully hidden since “[t]here are people at the board level who will rip you apart if there’s even a hint of you being, well, you know.”
The postulant offers quite the indictment: “While it was never articulated so directly, the message was clear: You cannot be ordained here as a whole person. You have to split yourself. We don’t want all of you. Only part of you is truly worthy of this calling. You have to hide. You have to lie. You have to be someone other than you.” Unable to live in a lie, Overman decided to switch to the United Church of Christ / Disciples of Christ (UCC). Nevertheless, he prophesied, “Change will come. There will be a day when all God’s children are welcome at the table, both receiving God’s blessing and presiding over God’s gifts of meal and water, regardless of who they love.”
I am saddened but appreciative by this article. Any orthodox Christian would be saddened with someone struggling with homosexuality and yet feeling called to ordained ministry. The same will also be upset to see that an active gay man would be a pastor of any church. The biblical standards for ecclesiastical leadership are quite clear on this point. Titus 1:1-9 and I Timothy 3:1-13 both lay out the particular requirements for various offices (including “husband of one wife,” for what it’s worth). Additionally, clergy are not to live in open, unrepentant sin nor are they to be unequally yoked to non-Christians. Evangelicals and traditional Christians of various stripes realize that the Bible is quite clear in its condemnation of homosexuality as a sin, and thus they could not accept someone like Mr. Overman for office.
It’s not as if as though he couldn’t serve others in the church (though he may in fact fall under church discipline if he is a member); he simply could not hold a position of clerical leadership. Homosexuality isn’t (or at least shouldn’t be) the only sin to bar one from office, but it is still enough to do so. Those responsible for ordination need to be aware that they need to apply a consistent standard of holiness and blamelessness, regardless of cultural “ick” factors.
Speaking of consistency, I really appreciate Mr. Overman’s. At first gloss, he seems to be obeying at least the spirit of “holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience,” to use St. Paul’s language. In this instance, he cannot in good conscience submit to the ancient standards of the United Methodist Discipline and has sought different pastures in the UCC. Though we radically differ on sexual morality and church teaching, Mr. Overman and I agree on something that seems to clash with our elder mainline predecessors.
The problem with “don’t ask, don’t tell” Christianity is that we’re not allowed to engage in it.
The Christian life is one of honesty. Hiding disobedience “under a bushel” conflicts with uprightness. This is not about a fluffy “being true to self”; this is being truthful with one’s neighbors.
This means warring against hypocrisy, pursuing consistency, confessing to whom we need to confess, and a myriad of other practices are key to the church’s witness. Mr. Overman gets it (albeit with a caveat for his active homosexuality); others obviously don’t. The latter spirit has been rather active as of late. When Rev. Amy Delong was found guilty of officiating a same-sex wedding ceremony by a church court, she received a ludicrously light sentence. Later on, she revealed that she felt like Brer Rabbit thrown into the briar patch. After the 2012 General Conference upheld the UMC’s sexuality standards, retired Bishop Talbert made a call for ecclesiastical disobedience in Tampa and later on at a California-Pacific ordination ceremony. Thus, the strategy of revisionist clergy has been one of defiance—mostly in rather shameful secrecy, but also in the more insolent open.
We are supposed to love, support, and entrust ourselves to the Church, not subvert her. The correct response is to either conform to her teaching or leave. Revisionist United Methodists have worked hard to alter such teaching, but their efforts for liberalizing sexuality will be foiled by international votes for the foreseeable future. Instead joining other like-minded bodies, they live double lives. This is an unacceptable position. Mr. Overman realizes that, and perhaps other United Methodists on all sides could learn from his example.
Allow me to put in my two cents’ worth, based on my husband and I being involved in community theatre for many years, meaning we know LOTS of gay men, and without exception they are all happy, positive, upbeat, full of life, witty, perfectly comfortable with themselves. I would never associate any of them with words like victim, oppressed, persecuted, guilt-ridden, or anything like that. On the contrary, they seem to lead happier lives than most of the straight people I know. They drive nice cars, dress well, live in upscale neighborhoodsd, keep themselves in good shape. I know lots of straight people who abuse drugs and alcohol, who require psychological counseling, who take antidepressant or antianxiety medications, but no gay men do.
I know that in our culture being a VICTIM confers a certain prestige. Well, I just cannot accept gay men as victims, given that their lives are happier than average. As a Christian, I believe we have to prioritize our time, that we owe God our attention to groups and individuals that are truly oppressed and victimized, but gay men just don’t fit that category. When I see video of them ranting about being oppressed and victimized and how churches make them feel guilty about their lifestyles, I just don’t buy it. I never saw a gay guy sad, much less guilt-ridden. they seem to pursue their lifestyles with great abandonment. The ones I know that are in their 70s or even older are not nearly as bitter or grumpy as most old people are. The gay life seems to fit its name, gay. With all due respect to the gay men I’ve known, I just don’t accept this “act” of being victims, for they are anything but.
Someone will inevitably bring up the church issue. My take on that is, let gay men attend churches where they are comfortable, and there are LOTS of those. About a mile from our house is an Episcopal church that has a huge gay contingent. I’m told that in the social time before worship on Sunday, you can hear all the laughter and chatter if you walk by on the street. I guess some gays would like to force all churches to be accepting, but I think that is nonsense. there are lots of different churches in America, so this “one size fits all” mentality shows intolerance. if they don’t like First Baptist, fine, they can go to Trinity Episcopal. I’ve visited churches I don’t like, and so what – I find one that I do like.
Wow.
That’s, um, a perspective I hadn’t encountered before, Kay.
I don’t think I know as many gay guys as you do, but after reading your post, it hit me: she’s right. Judging from their behavior, “victim” is about the last word you’d think of. Maybe that’s why I experience “cognitive dissonance” when I read or hear one of their rants – they do the boo-hoo talk but there’s nothing boo-hoo about their lives. I guess part of that is the whole issue of conscience. Christians aren’t guaranteed happiness in this world, just confidence, and our moral sense means we’re often aware of our moral failures, not living up to our ideals. A person who has no ethical standards actually has discovered the route to happiness, at least in the worldly sense. Live for today, live for pleasure, feel no guilt. The Beatitudes talk about our being “blessed,” not “happy.” There’s a difference, one that the secular mind could never grasp.
Neil…
I’m debating enemies of the cross.
“Debating?” No, that would have to involve actually, you know, responding to my actual points and questions. You have done none of that. Rather, what you are doing is demonizing your fellow Christians, bearing false witness and slandering. All of which the Bible calls “sin.”
“Enemies of the cross?”
I love God. I love Jesus. I am a poor, poor sinner, saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus, the risen son of God.
Exactly what part of that makes me an “enemy of the cross…”?
I’ve forgiven you for your false statements, for your slander, for your twisting of the truths and frequent telling of half truths (or at least, I stand ready to forgive you as soon as you repent). I have affirmed my love for you as my brother in Christ. I’ve offered a hand of reconciliation and suggested we take this little spat off-line and settle in between you and I, man to man, brother to brother, reconciling ourselves as the Bible teaches.
Exactly what part of that makes me an “enemy of the cross…”?
Be specific.
Do you truly think that to disagree on a behavior means that the person who disagrees with you is an enemy of the cross? That would explain, I guess, why conservative types have so many enemies, if all it takes is to disagree with you to become an enemy.
Brother Neil, I am not your enemy. I am certainly not an enemy of the cross, that is a false witness, as borne out by the actual evidence. I ask you, in the name of Christ our Lord, to give up this hostility and slander. Embrace grace, my friend. This bitter, bitter life you’re living, finding enemies everywhere, is harmful to you and just an ugly thing to watch.
You are in my prayers.
Well this has been amusing (albeit time-wasting), so must sign off.
Have a lovely and anxiety-free evening, december. Maybe you can get Nurse Ratched to check the closet for Christians.
I’m on vacation his week. I dont know how everyone else has time to respond to these, haha.
And I’m sorry, Ben, I don’t get your reference
I meant the way that you show them love… But I’m sure you knew that.
Which ones?
Oh, yes, I forgot – our Sunday school class burned a few over the weekend. We ran out of witches, had to find some other group to persecute.
Isn’t it AMAZING how we pulled that off without the media finding out?
Gosh, for a bunch of cretins we are whizzes at staying under the radar.
I’ve never met one – not ONE – of those fundamentalist Christians who wants to take over the government.
On the one hand, libs say we’re incredibly stupid (which would suggest we’re way too dense to pull off a government takeover).
On the other hand, we’ve got such a clever conspiracy going, that there is NO evidence of it.
So we’re extremely clever (and stealthy) morons.
What else? Oh, yes: “Vast numbers of people will be imprisoned, tortured, and killed” when those clever (and stealthy) morons take over the government. What sign that this is beginning? Nine people on the Supreme Court, no fundamentalist – in fact, not one Protestant. Liberal president, liberal Senate majority leader – oh yes, liberal-dominated media, liberal-dominated entertainment industry, liberal-dominated educational system.
“Vast numbers will be imprisoned, tortured, and killed.”
These are the ravings of a madman. How do people like that function in the world? Are they confined in some assisted-living facility where specially trained nurses help them put on their socks and tuck in their bibs and check under the beds to make sure no fundamentalist is hiding under there with an assault rifle? There is something severely twisted about seeing hatred and conspiracy where they don’t exist. It’s like something Isaiah warned about, calling good evil and evil good.
I don’t get it. Reality is so nice, so fascinating – I mean, not perfect, but all in all, I like it. I just can’t grasp someone wanting to create an alternate universe inside his head, unless he takes some perverse pleasure in being the Chicken Little who warns the king that the sky is falling. I guess in the alternate universe of Paranoialand, the one who sees the non-existent danger becomes the Hero.
I almost feel sorry for them. Trying to prop up such a false worldview must be exhausting. Add to what you listed their advocacy for the “human right” to kill unwanted human beings (as long as they are defenseless!) and for oxymoronic “same-sex marriage” while still claiming the name of Christ and I’m surprised they have the energy to get out of bed in the morning.
I agree, but quite honestly, I don’t feel sorry for them, because it’s obviously their choice to embrace paranoia and a conspiracy theory for which there is zero evidence. Of course, the media help perpetuate the paranoia. I guess it comes back to what our parents used to ask us about doing what all the other kids were doing: If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump too? Apparently some would say “You bet!”
My nephew went through a brief gay phase while in college and he said he got so disgusted that every time a group got together they would just go on and on about how those evil Christians were going to round them all up and kill them. Apparently they didn’t all believe that, but the ones who didn’t kept their mouths shut and let the others rant. He seemed to think there was a kind of snob element to the whole thing, the ones who knew about the “secret” conspiracy were supposed to be the smart guys. I gather that when you’re part of a minority group like that and you know that your morals (or lack of) are under suspicion, you have to slander the people that you think don’t approve of you. In my whole life I’ve never heard any Christian say “I hate gays,” and yet there’s all this anti-Christian paranoia floating around.
That’s because actions speak louder than words.
Ben, that is so true. You might like the http://hillbuzz.org/ blog, where an otherwise-conservative gay guy whales on the Left and the gay community that he has been a major part of. Very informative.
Neil/ematters…
Exposing false teachers.
I believe in salvation by God’s grace through faith in Jesus, the risen son of God.
I believe in God, the great creator, who loved the world so much that God came here in the form of the son, Jesus.
I believe that humans have a sinful nature.
I believe that we are saved by God’s grace, when we accept Jesus’ lordship in our lives and repent of our sins.
Orthodox points, all.
False teachers are not merely “those who disagree with me on any point…” or else we’re all false teachers to somebody. False teachers – according to the Bible – are those who deliberately lie and deceive, usually out of greed.
Interestingly, biblically speaking, those who would accuse those fellow believers who merely disagree with them on non-essential, extrabiblical points (twisting truths to do that) come much closer to being a “false teacher” as the Bible defines it than the ones that IRD and Brother Neil tend to target.
Disagreeing with one another on non-essential points is simply disagreeing with others, it is an in-house discussion and one that should be done with respect and grace, not demonization and false witness and slander.
That is not of the Kingdom of God.
According to the Bible.
Don’t worry December84. He’s just a little agitated right now. He’ll be okay when he calms down a bit.
This is not at all uncommon. Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals like fighting agnostics and atheists because they are easy to demonize. It follows the switch “on” and switch “off” model that all absolutists use to order their world. Everything in the world is either evil or good. No gray areas or in-between areas exist in the world—or so they think—and they have a great deal of psychological trouble handling ambiguity in the world. Put another way, they can only survive, enjoy life, and feel secure in a world where everything is crystal clear and absolutely certain. Southern Baptists call it “you know…that you know..that you know.”
They go berserk when nonfundamentalist and nonevangelical Christians walk into a room, disagree with them, and present a contrarian understanding of the Bible. We call it interpretation of the Bible. They claim that there is no such thing as interpretation of scripture—only just what the words of the Bible plainly and simply say. Of course, those of us who know that everyone filters the Bible through their brain knows that this position is really just their alternative way of interpreting the Bible.
Romans 14 has a great deal to say about this issue. Chiefly, the Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals are what it refers to as the “weak brothers” in Christ who are not able to move on spiritually beyond simplicity and mothers milk to more transcendant things. One of the best Bible commentaries that I have ever read, and it was a great one, made the argument that Paul and Jesus never meant the weak Christians to take over and run the church. Rather, strong Christians Like Dan were supposed to lead the church and bring the others along gradually to a deeper spiritual understanding. Unfortunately, in the Unted States, especially down south, we have thousands upon thousands of churches and church organizations run lock, stock, and barrel by weak Christians.
Thanks for visiting from Stereotype and Bigotry Land with your self-portrait of hypocrisy. If december wasn’t such a hypocrite she’d whale on you for several comments. She tried to hide it with her bias, but please note that she considers you to be wrong and judgmental for declaring that someone is saved.
As it is, you ignore the implications of your pro-abortion advocacy and just resort to judgmental personal attacks. Predictable hypocrisy.
I seriously encourage you to get some counseling. Your paranoia about us wanting to kill people is a concern. Maybe you are projecting because your conscience isn’t 100% seared from all the unwanted children whose killings you blessed? It is sad, in a creepy sort of way, how you have to demonize authentic Christians to build yourself up.
Forgiveness is possible through Jesus — but it has to be the real Jesus of the Bible, not your made-up Jesus.
Dan. Please accept my congratulations on being a true follower of Jesus. Even though I do not know you, it is good to know that you are in this world—salt and light I believe they call it. I agree with you entirely on virtually everything you have said.
I would behave totally as you do were it not for my concern for the vast number of people who will be imprisoned, tortured, and killed when Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals take over our government at all levels—as they are trying to do desperately every day. Their greatest hope is that they can take over with little or no resistance—and they have been depending on that. The thing that they know and most fear is that organized public resistance will indeed rise up and stop them stop. My mission is to prevent tyranny and save lives. My gift of the Holy Spirit, searched out and known for certain, is the rare gift of true discernment. These IRD folks thing spiritual discernment is grabbing hold of an issue, like say murder, and then running to the Bible to check it out. If they run into “Thou shalt not kill,” they yell aloud to the world that they have “discerned” that murder is wrong. That is nowhere even remotely close to true spiritual discernment as set forth in the New Testament. If that were all there is to it, nearly every idiot with a Bible on the planet would have spiritual discernment. True spiritual discernment is a rare and exceptional supernnatural power akin to extrasensory perception. If you have never had it and have never seen it operating within yourself, there is no way a person could understand what it truly is and what its presence feels like.
Wow, what a fantasy world you live in! You are a pro-abort who thinks Bible-believers want to kill people. Sure. And you probably give a free pass to Islam!
You endorse Obama for President, and he’s the most pro-abortion politician in history. Pro-partial birth abortion, anti-Born Alive Infant Protection Act, you name it — http://www.lifenews.com/2012/10/22/romnesia-no-obamafuscation-hiding-his-pro-abortion-record/
His record on supporting the destruction of 3,000 plus innocent but unwanted human beings per day is there for all to see, and it happens because of “Christians” like you.
Of course real Christians are trying to “take over” government. Heck, we’ll even take non-Christians like Romney over non-Christians like Obama. We just want to save lives and improve the job situation. You act like voting in your interests is evil, when of course Liberals do the same thing. More Leftist hypocrisy.
Of course you agree with people like Trabue. I don’t read his comments, but apparently he still hasn’t converted to Christianity if you, in your hypocritical anti-biblical judgment, insist that he is saved.
P.S. I forgot, you think there isn’t enough destruction of unwanted human beings going on, so you support Obama and the Democrats in their platform to make pro-lifers pay for abortions at any stage of development. That will increase the already sickening number of abortions each day. By the way, a disproportionate amount of those will be in the black community so your actions are extremely racist as well — although my guess is that in your hypocrisy you think we’re the racists. But your policies kill blacks at a 3x rate to whites, not mine.
Here’s an extremely thorough list of the “accomplishments” of the abortion President — http://www.lifenews.com/2010/11/07/obamaabortionrecord/
You know for sure that this person is not saved? I thought only God knows who is saved and who isn’t. Unless you’re God, I would refrain from making statements about someone’s salvation.
If you are trying to get these guys to agree with you on abortion, calling them names is not going to help. If you truly wanted to move people away from being pro-choice you would use more honey and less vinegar. Are you trying to get these guys to agree with you or are you just ranting? Posts like yours never change someone’s mind. Rational argument rarely changes minds. But Christ like love and mutual understanding and friendship… That changes minds. Seeing someone’s behavior as something you want to imitate. Persuasion- you’re doing it wrong
“You know for sure that this person is not saved? I thought only God knows who is saved and who isn’t. Unless you’re God, I would refrain from making statements about someone’s salvation.”
You were addressing that to dover1952, right? After all, he is the one who judged another person’s soul and said, “Please accept my congratulations on being a true follower of Jesus. Even though I do not know you, it is good to know that you are in this world—salt and light I believe they call it. I agree with you entirely on virtually everything you have said.”
So we have you being a hypocrite and judging me for judging and not judging dover1952 for doing the real judging (you do realize it is just as judgmental to say someone is saved as to say they are unsaved, right?).
And isn’t it convenient how dover1952 judged another person’s sould on his own standards and not on God’s. But hey, if you agree with dover1952 — who apparently thinks he is God — then you must be saved!
I am judging by the fruit — or lack of it — just as Jesus told me to.
And you also give dover1952 and others a pass on your manners lesson. Oh, and the 3,000+ innocents destroyed today appreciate it as well.
I’m all for civility, but I stand by the accuracy of my words. If you all actually read all of the Bible you’d realize there is a time for righteous anger. And if it isn’t when babies are getting killed, then when is it?
You know, I’d agree with on what Dover said… But the way you made your point is what keeps me from siding with you. You didn’t address my points. You went right back to vinegar and telling people how much less they know about the bible than you do. What’s your goal here, ematters? What’s the end game of your comments here?
Thanks for conceding your hypocrisy. If you are honest with yourself you’ll note that dover wasn’t being too charming, either, but since he’s on your side you reflexively gave him a pass.
My end game? I have many. Encouraging believers. Exposing false teachers. Standing up for life. Defending the truth. Showing people how to think more carefully. Continuing to learn and grow in the Lord. Caring more about advancing God’s kingdom than about my popularity. And so on.
I hope you re-read this entire thread again sometime. I think you’ve been too steeped in the world and their fake tolerance, such that if people state the facts you call it “vinegar.” You never label the theological liberals that way, even when they do most of the name-calling.
I am all for winsomeness. I just did a weekend of prison ministry and the Muslim at my table could not have been more pleased with how graciously he was treated. Did I pretend that we both have valid religions? Of course not. We had a good discussion about the evidence for the deity of Christ. He promised to read the Gospel of John again. Maybe he’ll convert someday. It is between him and God.
But my tactics with professed believers who teach a false gospel is much sharper. Also, blogging is often like debating. It is rare that false teachers convert (though I do pray sincerely that God will open their eyes to the truth when they are reading the Bible to twist it for Satan’s agenda). But I’ve received countless comments from authentic believers who are encouraged by the facts and logic of orthodox Christianity and by learning how to dismantle atheist and false teacher sound bites.
Here’s an example of how I witness to gays — http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ . It is vinegar-free, so in theory you should love it. What is sad is that these theological liberals would have done Satan’s bidding and told the young man that homosexual behavior is fine and not a sin. That’s real hatred. These people love themselves and their popularity and the world. They don’t love God.
If your goal is to encourage believers, you have failed with me. This whole thread is discouraging and sad. It does not make me proud to be a Christian. You continually write about what you think I believe. We have never met. You do not know my views on gays or abortion, but I will tell you one thing, your anger doesn’t make you unpopular, it effects your goal to advance God’s kingdom.
Your antecdote about the Muslim makes me think maybe you are less abrasive in person. The anonynimity of the Internet makes us all bolder than we might be in person. Your motto seems to be “I can be a total asshole in the way I tell you you’re wrong, as long as you are wrong.”
In any case, this whole conversation, liberal Christians here, conservative… The whole thing is ugly. I’m willing to admit that, but I have yet to hear you admit your own wrongs and hypocrisy. Are you willing to admit that the comments from you, me and others on this thread have not been very Christ like?
“Your antecdote about the Muslim makes me think maybe you are less abrasive in person.”
I’m super nice and friendly, if I do say so myself.
But circumstances are different here. I’m debating enemies of the cross. I have stated facts and logic, and I stand by them.
“Your motto seems to be “I can be a total asshole in the way I tell you you’re wrong, as long as you are wrong.”
Thanks for the grins. That is the first time someone has preached to me about being nicer while simultaneously calling an asshole — and apparently without any sense of irony!
I don’t think there are truly theologically liberal Christians. There are theologically liberal “Christians” who claim Christ but mock him at every turn, denying his deity, his exclusivity, his word and more.
I’m wrong on plenty of things. Just not on this thread. Please call me an asshole some more while preaching about how I’m not nice enough
. Helps keep me humble!
What term could I use to describe your tone? Do you see me as an “enemy of the cross?”
“What term could I use to describe your tone?”
I don’t really care. I’ve just enjoyed watching your selective enforcement of your standards and your personal abuse of them..
“Do you see me as an “enemy of the cross?””
As you’ve noted, you haven’t made any specific claims to allow that assessment. You’ve just reflexively criticized the orthodox Christians and held them to a different standard than your own. If you deny the deity of Christ, deny that Jesus is the only way to salvation, or deny other essentials and call yourself a Christian, then yes.
Some people are just “saved and confused” because they hold some wrong views. I’m glad to dialog with them. Others are wolves in sheep’s clothing. I don’t apologize for stepping on wolf toes. Hopefully you aren’t one of them.
As always, Brother Neil, I welcome a personal email from you to try to talk these things through, set aside our differences and make our peace, brother to brother, Christian to Christian, forgiving where forgiveness needs to be offered and make things right.
My email stands open to conversation at anytime, my brother. Seriously, despite our difference, know that I love you as my brother in Christ and hope that we can set these differences aside to best show the love of God in our dealings with one another, even when we disagree over this idea or that idea.
I just don’t think public “beatings” of this sort are conducive to Christian grace and love.
I extend my hand to you in Christian fellowship, any time you wish to meet me half way.
In Christ,
Dan
* 100% of the biblical passages speaking of religious conservatives (ie, Pharisees), condemns them as blind guides, as snakes, as arrogant fools.
* 100% of the biblical passages speaking of scriptural literalism condemns it as a way of trying to put the foolish Pharisee/religious conservative in the place of God.
* 100% of the biblical passages dealing with the biting and scratching and gossiping and false witness of religious conservatives (or religious liberals) condemns such behavior as not being part of the kingdom of God.
* 100% of the biblical passages dealing with religious conservatives calling those who are of God, “NOT of God” calls such behavior blasphemy and perhaps even the “unforgiveable sin.”
* 100% of the biblical passages dealing with being liberal in our love, in dealing with one another with grace and respect as liberals tend to do, with being reasonable and not literal in our interpretations of Scripture endorse such behavior.
So, there you go, Brother Neil: You’re running counter to “100%” of biblical authority…
Dan. You hit the nail on the head when you said:
“…after we’ve clearly stated that we don’t disagree with the Bible, you have stepped beyond what you can reasonably know (“they disagree with my opinion about how best to interpret these passages”) to what you can’t reasonably know and what is presumptuous and arrogant (“when they disagree with MY interpretations, they are disagreeing with the Bible and, by extension, with God… that is, to disagree with me is to disagree with God…”)”
Dan rightly remembers what Jesus said—that sin originates in the heart and goes from the inside to the outside—not from the outside to the inside. The people at IRD are drinking deeply from the cup of original sin in the way that they are dealing with Dan here.
If you go back and read the story of the fall in Genesis, you will see what original sin really is. If you ask a Southern Baptist preacher, he will tell you—wrongly—that it was Eve’s “disobedience” of God’s command to not eat of the fruit that allows one to tell the difference between right and wrong. However, that misses the point entirely. if you read it through the eye’s of Jesus, the key question is: “Why did Eve eat the fruit?” As Jesus said, it came from inside her heart to the outside in pulling down the fruit from the tree. Eve’s sin—indeed original sin itself—is the basic desire in every human heart to BE GOD.
When the IRD people say, in effect, that “to disagree with my interpretation of the Bible is to disagree with God,” they are trying to BE GOD, and in the process they are showing themselves to be deeply and radically sinners in the most profound and bedrock way that it is humanly possible to be a sinner—committing direct original sin just as Eve did. This was why Jesus said to the scribes and pharisees that the harlots would go into the Kingdom of Heaven before they did. The harlots were run of the mill sinners like so many ordinary people are today. However, the scribes and pharisees, the religious leaders of their time, had become so confident in what they believed and so cock sure of their righteousness that they had begun to believe themselves to BE GOD. They had taken sin to its deepest original level and were proudly claiming it as their own righteousness. I would also remind you that they operated from the same legalistic perspective that the IRD does. They had the scriptures. They revered the word in excruciating detail. They had elaborated a system to ensure that they and everyone else in Jewish society complied with every last jot and tittle. Then Jesus showed up in Matthew 23, with intense anger and outrage, to let them know that they were PLAYING GOD and missing the whole point of the scriptures in the process. Why was He so angry? It is because GOD RIGHTLY and jealously reserves the role of Godhood to himself and himself ONLY.
The IRD and the Religious Right in the United States have been following the same path, and they are becoming little more than “tinkling cymbals” in the process. This is why I think Dan is wasting his time here. Pharisees have no time to listen to the truth because they already believe themselves to be GOD and have no need of it.
I think the IRD folks would do well to include a line in their morning prayers. All of us would. That line is:
“I confess to you today Lord that…you are God and I am not.”
He is:
The great I AM
You are the small:
i am not
Get that through your thick skulls up at IRD.
Interesting take on original sin and the pharisees. I never thought of it that way. Well articulated!
Now there’s a surprise — Dover1952 sits in judgment of others, gets the Bible wrong about criticizing other for getting the Bible wrong, uses abusive language, and then kinder/gentler december1984 cheers him on. Hypocrisy: You’re doin’ it right!
Matthew 23 starts off noting this: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” Then Jesus gives many examples of their hypocrisy.
The hypocrisy of theological liberals is plain to me: Being certain of their interpretation while blasting others for being sure of their interpretation. When they quote scripture they are being holy, but when orthodox Christians quote it we are playing God. Uh, sure, whatever.
The theological Left prattles about social justice then cheers the Obama administration for removing religious freedoms and supporting taxypayer-funded abortions. Talk about shedding innocent blood! They not only want it to be legal to shed it, they want to increase it and force pro-lifers to pay for it. And they think that Jesus is on their side. They mock God’s model for marriage and family and then say we have thick skulls. Gotcha.
They make up a god in their own image — one that thinks it is not only acceptable to crush and dismember innocent but unwanted human beings but a social good that should be available to all without price — and that those who disagree must fund it. That’s just one example of many. Like the blind men of Sodom they are so steeped in their sin and rebellion that they can’t even see their judgmental hypocrisy.
As Jesus said, “33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?”
From someone who tends to have a well put together argument, ematters, that was all over the place. You jumped from religion to politics (those are not the same thing, btw). Then went on a tirade about abortion that had nothing to do with what the commenter was talking about. And we’re you defending the Pharisees in your last comment? It sounds like you were saying “they were right to be legalistic, of they had just followed their own directives.” You say the bible tells us that we should follow their instruction… So why didn’t the early Christians continue to follow the Pharisees?
“You say the bible tells us that we should follow their instruction… So why didn’t the early Christians continue to follow the Pharisees?”
Please re-read my comment. I didn’t say that, I quoted Jesus word for word and pointed out the context. He blasts them for their hypocrisy in not following the law.
Then I pointed put the hypocrisy of the theological Left, a major example of which is their pro-abortion activism.
Surely you’re not speaking of treating one another with God’s humility and grace to BS, JP? Rather than making attacks, why not engage with the points being raised, friend?
For instance, can’t you agree that disagreeing with someone else’s INTERPRETATION of a passage is not the same as disagreeing with the Bible, right?
Truth???
I can think of another word, one that pertains to bovines.
And here is where you all begin to stray and err. When you say…
you do disagree with the Bible.
after we’ve clearly stated that we don’t disagree with the Bible, you have stepped beyond what you can reasonably know (“they disagree with my opinion about how best to interpret these passages”) to what you can’t reasonably know and what is presumptuous and arrogant (“when they disagree with MY interpretations, they are disagreeing with the Bible and, by extension, with God… that is, to disagree with me is to disagree with God…”)
I beg you all to check your egos at the door and to repent of this path that the Pharisees had so painfully trod before you.
Repent of this sort of presumptuousness and recognize that you all are not the holders of all knowledge nor are you the keepers of The One True Interpretation of the Bible.
Embrace grace, my proud friends. Love your brothers and sisters in Christ. Give up your warring ways.
For it is by grace that we are all saved, through faith in Jesus, and this, NOT OF YOURSELVES.
Remember Paul’s warning, that “You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” and…
“Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.”
Embrace grace.
Amen, thank you, brother.
Surrender to Truth.
eMatters, there is no common ground here, so communications is impossible. Liberals slap the label “hate” on anything that they disagree with. Likewise they define “compassion” as “change your mind and agree with us.” It’s like they see the world as a photographic negative – and if we can’t agree on some basic definitions like “hate” and “compassion,” how is discussion even possible?
It’s all rooted in insecurity: they know their positions don’t hold water and they could never win a rational debate. Explain something rational to a three-year-old and the best he can come up with is “You’re mean!” Of course, the three-year-old will, we hope, grow out of that, but when you have adults acting that way, not much hope for them.
Comparing the people you disagree with to three year olds will really help pull them closer to Christ and your view of him.
@ december84 — we’ll find out someday, won’t we? Which would be more likely, those who disagree with the Bible or those that agree with it and seek to follow it? The Bible is full of passages whaling on false teachers. I agree with those. Yet you seem to think that it is loving to subject the flock to wolves.
I don’t disagree with the bible. You make another assumption there. I disagree with your interpretation of it. I would not subject the flock to wolves either. We just disagree on who the wolves are.
Yes, you do disagree with the Bible. But first, let’s look at the Methodist Book of Discipline. Even the pro-gay people acknowledge the plain reading of this, which is why they are trying to change it:
“The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching.”
So even the theological Liberals know what Methodism stands for yet they encouraged this guy to pursue being a Methodist pastor. Surely he knew better as well. They failed to change the BoD via the proper methods so they resort to lies and tricks like trying to exclude the Bible-believing Africans from the debate. They are all dishonest to the core, which is another reason to keep them out of ministry.
Re. the Bible — see http://wp.me/p1wGU-3P7 The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Even non-Christians and two out of the three types of pro-gay theologians* can see these truths:
100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
* 1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God” (obviously non-Christians) 2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind” (only about 10 things wrong with that) 3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” — easily refuted
Couple things. 1. You don’t know me, so how in the world do you know that I disagree with the bible? 2. You take a whole paragraph trying to explain to me how being gay is a sin when you don’t even know what my position on the subject is.
What I am continually frustrated by on this thread is that people seem to be here just to argue that they are right and know more about the bible than the next guy. Instead of speaking to me like a loving sister in Christ you are throwing verses at me assuming I disagree with you before you even know my position.
re: “100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior…”
This is a rather shallow and immature approach to exegesis. It encourages cherry picking, not deep mature study of God’s Holy Word.
Consider:
100% of the verses addressing polygamy do not condemn it.
100% of the time God is mentioned in dealing with polygamy, God endorses it.
100% of the verses telling us how to cut our hair has God telling us to either let it grow long/never cutting it (in the case of Nazirites) or has God telling men never to “round off the hair on their temples or marring the edge of their beards” (Neil, I suppose you DO have the God-endorsed beard on your face, right? I mean 100% of the verses where God endorses a men’s hair cut, it demands you keep your beard, bro. I’ve seen your picture and suspect you’re outright sinning on this VERY CLEAR rule from God… You’ll notice that most of us anabaptist and liberal types keep a beard, in keeping with this clear rule from God. But you don’t believe the Bible, as evidenced by your sin in this area…)
100% of the verses where God tells us what to do when people ask for money, God says GIVE IT. Neil, I’d like $1000, please. After all, 100% of Biblical verses dealing with this topic demand you to give it to me. I’d like you to drop it off at my house, please. Any evening after 7pm. Thanks…
I could go on and on. This whole idea of, “IF the Bible says something ’100% of the time,’ then that MUST be God’s rule for us” is a rather grade school approach to studying God’s Holy Word.
As the Bible teaches (100% of the time, in fact) It’s time we stop suckling milk and move on up to the meat of God’s Word/God’s Ways, my friends. Childish cherry picking does not become serious Bible study or rational, mature thinking.
Words to prayerfully consider.
In Christ’s peace…
I think this Overman guy is pretending to be more naive than he really is. Obviously some of his gay friends had already told him that it was not difficult to be ordained as a United Methodist while still carrying on an active gay lifestyle. I would tell the Methodists two things: one, if you’re going to have standards for your ministers, then enforce them; two, be glad this Overman guy went over to the UCC, good riddance.
Wow Kerry. “this Overman guy…. Good riddance” I can just hear the love of Christ in your voice.
The comments to the article are absolutely sickening. How can you call yourself a Christian? You should be angry about your own sin and sad about what you see as sin in others. Not the other way around. I see none of the compassion of Christ in these comments.
“Wow Kerry. “this Overman guy…. Good riddance” I can just hear the love of Christ in your voice.”
Was Jesus being unloving in Matthew 7? Because the following sounds a bit like “good riddance.”
“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
If you really love your neighbor you’ll have his long-term best interests at heart, which would include ridding the church of false teachers. And telling false teachers that they are false teachers isn’t unloving, it is the truth. But the truth sounds like hate to those that hate the truth.
And you’re sure that Christ wasn’t talking about you in that verse?
“The comments to the article are absolutely sickening. How can you call yourself a Christian? You should be angry about your own sin and sad about what you see as sin in others. Not the other way around. I see none of the compassion of Christ in these comments.”
Please re-read your comment and consider your hypocrisy — the very kind Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:1-5. You are shocked and angered that someone would want to remove a “pastor” who teaches the opposite of the Bible and his denomination and then judge them as offering sickening comments and potentially not even Christian. You preach that the commenters should refrain from objecting to false teachers and just focus on their own sins.
So how about you? Did you take your own advice and just focus on your sin, or did you come to criticize others without compassion?
The theological Left has used their faux tolerance card so long they don’t even realize what shameless hypocrites they are.
Your reply is full of assumptions. I am neither shocked nor angered. And if you read the article, he was not a pastor yet, was not removed, he chose to join another denomination.
I’m not saying you don’t have the right to disagree with Michael’s ordination, what I take exception with is the way you express your disagreement. I don’t see compassionate words or Christian love. I hear condescension, mean-spirited rhetoric, and a constant “us vs. them” mentality.
All I’m asking is for you to consider those who don’t know Christ when you speak and ask yourself if what you’re saying is going to drive them farther away from God or closer.
“Your reply is full of assumptions. ”
My reply quoted you word for word then pointed out your hypocrisy.
“I’m not saying you don’t have the right to disagree with Michael’s ordination, what I take exception with is the way you express your disagreement”
I know you didn’t say I didn’t have that right. I know you took exception to my facts and logic and considered them non-Christ-like. I also know that in your own words you did exactly what you were accusing us of. That’s hypocrisy.
“I don’t see compassionate words or Christian love.”
That’s because your definition of love has been perverted. I encourage you to read all of the Bible and note how the quotes of Jesus and the rest of the divinely inspired words addressed false teachers.
It isn’t loving to encourage people in their sin and rebellion. You are loving yourself and your popularity over your neighbor’s salvation.
“All I’m asking is for you to consider those who don’t know Christ when you speak and ask yourself if what you’re saying is going to drive them farther away from God or closer.”
I do consider that. I have full confidence in the word of God to accomplish what he desires. If the truth of the Gospel offends then I’m fine with that.
Kerry, I think you’re on to something. The Methodists figured they could have it both ways: they would retain their “official” stance that they consider homosexuality “incompatible with Christian teaching,” and that would pacify the conservatives. But they could keep the libs happy by never actually enforcing the rule. In other words, their “official” position is a “scofflaw.” This Matthew Overman understood that. It was like he saw a lot of cars doing 80mph on a street where the posted limit was 30mph, so he figured, Hmm, looks like they’re not too serious about the speed limit here.
Thanks for showing love and grace, Kerry. Oh, wait… yea, not so much…
I can’t believe the amount of hate in these comments. If you wonder why do many are leaving the church, you simply need to read a forum like this. You are not being a light, you are snuffing that light out with your legalistic, anger filled speech. Get the log out of your own eye before you start judging others. Read what you posted and ask yourself if Jesus would read your comment and hug you afterwards. Or would he tell you to step off your high horse and let him go back to being in charge of telling people how to live their lives.
Just saw this comment as well. More hypocrisy from you, just like the other comment where you keep dodging my points. Really, re-read your own comments and see what I mean.
One example: “Get the log out of your own eye before you start judging others.”
Jesus was teaching not to judge hypocritically, which, ironically, is exactly what you are doing! You call people haters, blame them for people leaving the church, not being lights, being legalistic and angry, snuffing out the light, being on their high horses, etc. and then you tell them not to judge. This is classic!
EMatters, you’re right. Judging your hypocricy is equally hypocritical of me. I hope you can forgive me and I pray that God blesses you and yours.
As Dan quoted above “Let your conversation be always full of grace.” I haven’t done that today. I hope that we, the church can discuss and disagree in a more graceful manner moving forward. We don’t seem to be very good at it at the present
december84,
Thanks for your response. We agree that we should hold fast to grace.
Peace.
P.S. Just for clarity, remember that Jesus came full of grace and truth. Truth without grace will crush people, but grace without truth will point them to Hell (and grace without truth is somewhat of an oxymoron — without the truth how do you know you need grace?).
So the goal is obvious: Share the counter-cultural truth that homosexual behavior is sinful and that “same-sex marriage” is not a Christian concept, but do so in a graceful way. And don’t have leaders who are incapable of doing that.
Sadly, it’s telling that “december” apologized for any missteps she made when she perhaps acted like others here, following the rather graceless lead of our conservative friends. She is met with “Thanks for your response…”??
Man up, my friends. If an apology is owed, follow Ms December’s Christian lead and apologize. Don’t be a sanctimonious jerk, willing to “acknowledge” (color me unimpressed) someone reaching out with an apology but dropping it there.
Lord, Jesus, have mercy.
May we embrace grace, give up the biting and scratching, the slander and childish bitching that is NOT of the kingdom of God and just try to love one another as we’ve been told. It is time to grow up, folks.
Dan had actually been sort-of behaving for a short while and fulfilling my simple request for him to not reply to my comments. Looks like he lost his self-control. All about unloving, lying, blog-stalking false teacher Dan Trabue who claims he loves me as a brother-in-Christ yet fails again to comply with the simplest request for love in history: Do nothing. By that I mean that he was asked not to reply to my comments (just as he repeatedly disobeyed requests not to comment on my blog and not to email me — after which he literally wrote to my pastor to complain!). You’ve been warned, people, and you should take this into account when reading his falsehoods here. Blessings to the IRD for exposing wolves in sheep’s clothing like Trabue. Consider the link a prebuttal to anything and everything he says on this thread.
I make it a habit not to apologize when there is nothing to apologize for. Otherwise, I’d be lying. I stand behind everything I wrote here. To her credit, december84 realized that she had been hypocritical in doing the precise thing she was blaming others for. But Dan “really, I’m all about grace — here’s another sermonette!” Trabue thinks that saying I’m graceless makes me graceless.
Oh, and he thinks it is an example of grace to call me a sanctimonious jerk, after which he insists that we should embrace grace, etc. More Leftist hypocrisy and a double-FAIL for Dan — unwilling to show true love by complying to a simple request and then doubling down with a graceless call to grace. You just can’t make these things up. I deeply appreciate forums where the true nature of false teachers can be exposed.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, blog about your enemies, rebuke them that curse you, let others comment about how wrong them that hate you are, and ban from your blog them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
Oh, december84, you were finally coming around and now you regressed. You are back to hypocritically judging. How do you know that I don’t pray for Dan? I pray for all false teachers, that when they are busy abusing the scriptures that God will open their eyes to the truth and that they will end their rebellion. If you can find a passage that says I’m obligated to post all comments from false teachers and give them a veneer of respectability then please share it.
Is there a reason you didn’t quote this verse instead?
Ephesians 5:6-11 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
I obey God by exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness, among other things. I could have pasted any one of a few dozen passages about false teachings there but picked that one at random. Read the entire Bible. It is about grace AND truth.
You’re just never wrong about anything, are you eMatters?
I am bowing out of this “discussion.” because it is no longer a discussion, it is one guy screaming at others from his pulpit claiming to have the perfect interpretation of the gospel. And it’s too hard for me to try to be Christ like in my responses, so I will choose to say nothing more.
It’s times like this that my faith is tested. When I’m asked to love biblical bullies and arrogant ecclesiastical jerks who have taken up the cause of the Pharisees in our modern age.
May God bless you and keep you, and I’ll be praying for you.
“You’re just never wrong about anything, are you eMatters?”
Of course I’m wrong sometimes. But that argument cuts both ways, which makes it meaningless. Do you and the theological Liberals think you are wrong? Of course not, otherwise you’d hold our views. So the fact that we both think we’re right isn’t a negative commentary on either of us. Sadly, too many people are steeped in the faux tolerance of postmodern thinking. It is just more hypocrisy: They “know” they are right but judge others as bad for thinking they are right.
“it is one guy screaming at others from his pulpit claiming to have the perfect interpretation of the gospel.”
Screaming? Really? Can you see how I could make the same claim about you and others? Again, that is a pointless personal attack.
“When I’m asked to love biblical bullies and arrogant ecclesiastical jerks who have taken up the cause of the Pharisees in our modern age.”
december84 thinks she is right and hypocritically criticizes others for doing exactly what she does = really nice, loving Christian
eMatters thinks he is right and backs up his views with facts and logic = bullying, arrogant, Pharisaical jerk
Duly noted. I can really feel the grace, love and consistency.
“May God bless you and keep you, and I’ll be praying for you.”
Thanks, same to you! (seriously on my part — not sure if was on yours)
Oh, and why is it “biblical bullies and arrogant ecclesiastical jerks who have taken up the cause of the Pharisees in our modern age” when I quote scripture and gracious love when you do?
If you think I’ve misinterpreted a passage then by all means please correct me. I’ve been wrong before and am always glad to understand it better. (2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.)
For the record I did mean that sincerely. And it’s not the evidence you provide to support your viewpoints (I wish more people would do that!) it’s the way you present. It’s (and perhaps this is the problem with text that has no inflection) when you sound condescending and disdainful in your responses. Maybe you don’t even realize it comes off that way. I’m sure you’ve heard that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
I expect you’ll respond with a paragraph about how I am wrong. There is nothing wrong with healthy disagreement. I agree that too many people believe you have to agree or it’s offensive. But it’s your presentation that is off putting.
And now I’ll try to bow out again… It’s really hard to do! You are a good argument baiter! I’ll give you that.
Neil, when you say to others, “No, you are NOT agreeing with the Bible,” when you mean, “You disagree with my interpretation of the Bible,” you are being arrogant and a bully. This is not part of the Kingdom of God.
When you slander, make up excrement and girlishly gossip about stuff on the internet, spreading lies and half truths (as you objective do each time you bear false witness about me, rather than addressing my points), you are being arrogant, a bully, you are spreading gossip and bearing false witness and slandering, and none of that is of the Kingdom of God.
Brother, I do forgive you of these falsehoods and the bullying you do, but I also ask that, for your sake, you repent. What you are doing is not of Christ. Demonstrably, objectively so.
Bearing false witness to try to score cheap political points to support your human traditions and cultural ideals is just wrong, my brother.
Stop doing that, repent, turn around. There is no harm in admitting you are wrong.
And for God’s sake, where are the blog administrator’s? Don’t you all ever step in to stop this sort of abuse? Shame on you all.
What is repentant sin? I hear all this talk about unrepentant sin – well, how do you sin with repentance? As long as you feel bad afterwards it’s ok? Or do you get to do it for a long time as long as one day, you stop? Or perhaps you have to be walking down the street, attempting to do right, and then the urge to sin sneaks up and gets you – is God ok with that? If we (allegedly) sin all the time, it would seem ALL are unrepentant sinners – otherwise, you wouldn’t sin but a few times. Then you would stop. Of course, this doesn’t happen; therefore, there should be no clergy. At all. That would make the world a better place.
JP, I’m sorry if I was not clear. You have misunderstood my points, let me clarify a bit. You said…
Jesus and the apostles did NOT teach that there are no rules for Christians.
Indeed, this is absolutely true. I never said that there are no rules for Christians and don’t believe it.
We agree on that point, okay?
We have, at the least, the Rule of Love – to love others and to take our actions in an attitude of love and grace. Amen?
We also have the Golden Rule, to love everyone as we’d want to be loved.
These are rules, right?
And not only are they rules, but they are HARD rules.
It’d be a whole lot simpler if we just said, for instance, “NEVER TELL A FALSEHOOD. PERIOD. NEVER DESTROY OTHERS’ PROPERTY. PERIOD.”
But then, what if we get in a situation like those nuns in “The Sound of Music,” where the Nazis are looking for the “good guys” – to arrest them and force the father into horrible acts. What did the nuns do? They LIED about not knowing where to find the family. Not only that, but they broke into the Nazis’ car and STOLE some wires, disabling the car so the Nazis could not give chase.
The violated the little rules, but why? Because they were operating out of the larger and more difficult Rule of Love. Because they loved the family, they lied to help hide them. Because they loved the Nazis, they lied to keep them from doing a wrong. They stole property in order to better love the Nazis and especially the innocent family.
These are hard rules to work out. It’s not a simple matter of simply obeying a rule found on the pages of the Bible. They had to use their heads and their conscience to go BEYOND the little rules to obey the greater Rule of Love.
Jesus had to deal with this with the Pharisees. They found a little rule in the OT (Don’t work on the Sabbath, keep it holy) and Jesus had to expand and explain to them THE PURPOSE of the rule. The Pharisees wanted to mindlessly just obey (and demand that others obey) the literal rule but in so doing, they missed the PURPOSE of the rule.
The Sabbath is for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath.
In demanding literal adherence to literal OT or even NT rules, we, like the Pharisees, run the risk of missing the deeper truths. This seems to me to be what Jesus is getting at in the sermon on the mount and in much of his teachings.
Did he come to abolish all rules? No! Of course not. But he did come to FULFILL the rules, to explain them, to help people see beyond the literal rules to the Greater Truth of the Rule of Love.
A child can read a line in an ancient text and say, “I will do what that line says, because it’s what the ancient text says…” But it takes a bit more maturity in our faith to go beyond the rules to the deeper truths.
That is what I think Jesus taught us. That is what I think we need. NOT “no rules,” but digging deeper to the meat of the rules, to thinking like adults, not like children.
DOes that help clarify?
Game, set, match, Dan.
I don’t know what that means, John. Bible study and ethics aren’t a game, it doesn’t seem to me.
Come, let us reason together.
“We are supposed to love, support, and entrust ourselves to the Church, not subvert her. The correct response is to either conform to her teaching or leave.”
That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. If everyone took your advice, churches would consist of nothing but empty pews. We all stray on our walk. Every single one of us (except the author of this piece, I’m sure). God welcomes all and loves all. No three-strikes-you’re-out policy.
This is a sad, muddled and fundamentally incorrect version of Christianity you espouse.
http://conciliaranglican.com/2012/10/14/praying-twice-the-churchs-one-foundation/
If you wonder why people are leaving churches folks, it’s not because of acceptance. It’s because of your willingness to vilify people doing great ministry (like Rev. Corsaro or Mr. Overman). Your hateful attitude scares me away from trying out churches. to all of you – know that I was an “unchurched” person when I discovered this blog (while researching churches) and I will continue to be one if this kind of hateful, judgmental community. That’s too bad, because I really needed some spiritual leadership and guidance.
The great thing about America is that there is an open market in churches. Given the diversity, anyone can find a “church home” if they try a few. Some churches would regard that Corsaro woman as a paragon of justice and compassion, others would see her as a shrill attention-seeking harpy who encourages abortion and promiscuity. Naturally that leads to different groups calling themselves “Christians” and having diametrically opposed beliefs. But consider the alternative: an established church where one side could silence and persecute the other. With all its failings, the open market is a good system. Since you say you need “spiritual leadership and guidance,” rest assured that no matter what your lifestyle or what you believe, some church out there will embrace you warmly. It sounds like the UCC with their aggressively pro-abortion, pro-gay, anti-America stance would be a good fit. Good luck, hope you find what you’re looking for.
In what way in the UCC “anti-American”?
I didn’t say it was “anti-American,” I said it was “anti-America.” The president of the US (B. Obama) attended a UCC congregation where the pastor proclaimed from the pulpit, “God damn America!” The denomination did not censure him for that because it perfectly reflects the denomination’s stance. The US is imperialistic, capitalistic, sexist, racist, homophobic, violent, anti-environment, shoots puppies with BB guns, etc, etc, you name it – uniquely evil among the nations of the world. “Eco-justice” is their code word for getting the US to dismantle its economy by signing every nutzo environmental treaty, and they have a very high opinion of the United Nations. Also, they hate the Boy Scouts, ostensibly because the Boy Scouts don’t allow gay scoutmasters (for the same reason that the Girl Scouts don’t allow straight men to be scoutmasters), but probably they hate the Boy Scouts more for being a generally pro-American organization.
If you doubt what I’ve said, do a Google search for any UCC anywhere in the country, click on their “What We Believe” or, if you have the stomach for it, take in a video of a sermon, where you’ll discover every UCC pastor knows precisely how the US government should conduct itself. It’s amazing how all-knowing their pastors are, because several have already stated publicly that they KNOW that the guy who shot Trayvon Martin is guilty, so I bet the guy is praying there aren’t any UCC people on his jury.
Other than being shallow, trendy, and utterly conformed to the secular culture and liberalism, they are a great group, though for some unfathomable reason they are losing members by the busload.
J P, you know that when a liberal invites you to wallow in the mud, you should just ignore the invitation, because only one of you will enjoy it, and it won’t be you. However, since you already rattled off the usual list of why liberals hate America, any reply would be kind of anti-climactic.
“God’s gifts of meal and water?” How screwy has everybody gotten? How hard do you have twist the Passover meal to get there?
Jesus spoke out against legalism. That isn’t the same as speaking out against all rules. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus didn’t toss out the Ten Commandments, he made them even stricter. Instead of throwing out “No adultery,” he added “no lusting in your heart.” Instead of throwing out “No murder,” he added “no hate.”
“Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets” (Matthew 5:17). What is there about this that liberals just don’t get? Jesus and the apostles did NOT teach that there are no rules for Christians.
Ben…
What they ought to say is, “We stake out our position based on whatever the secular culture is doing, then we sprinkle a few Bible verses around to make it sound like God approves.”
I have to wonder about people who don’t regard the Bible as a guide to life: How do they know they’re doing it right?
One problem, my Brother Ben, is that you are starting out with a caricature of progressive Christian opinion, rather than actual opinion. Let me clarify a bit.
1. No serious progressive Christian “stake their position based on what secular culture is doing.” I can only hope you were being facetious here, because that sounds delusional, otherwise.
2. Secular culture does all manner of things that progressives speak out against. We spoke out against racism, sexism and homosexual oppression all when popular culture was “doing” these things. We have been a voice for love, charity, justice and Godly ways, regardless of what popular culture is doing. So, I hope you can see that this is just a ridiculous statement, hopefully it was just a joke.
3. Just because we don’t treat the bible as a literal rule book does not in ANY way mean we don’t take it seriously or that we don’t treat it as a guide for life. Indeed, I believe our Bible to be as Scripture says about Scripture: Good for teaching, rebuking, correction and edification. I believe that, but I don’t believe it is a holy rule book. The Bible never says that of itself and, indeed, when the Pharisees treated Scripture as a holy rule book and aggrandized themselves as the One True Source for rightly interpreting that rule book, this is EXACTLY where they went wrong and faced the most severe rebukes from Jesus. “Hypocrites! Fools! White-washed tombs! Snakes! Blind guides!” We don’t want to go down that road.
Jesus never (in, you know, Scripture) raised his voice at “regular sinners” – the whores, the sexually reprobate, the murderers and thieves. No, he reserved his harsh rebukes solely for the powerful religious elites who presumed too much and who treated the Scripture as a harsh rule book and themselves as the righteous dividers of God’s Truth.
So, how do we know what is right? The same way that anyone else does: We pray. We observe. We contemplate. We read holy writ to learn how believers in the past behaved (and misbehaved). We earnestly seek God’s Spirit’s guidance. We use our God-given reasoning. We reflect upon God’s Word, written upon our hearts and minds.
You know, like the Bible tells us to do.
To suggest that we do not do this is rather presumptuous and ill-informed, not to mention slanderous (and you know, I suppose, that the Bible teaches that slander is not part of Kingdom living).
Gary…
The Bible is a holy rule book – otherwise as Bart Gingerich told Dan eveybody would just do what they think God is telling them to do.
Ben…
If it isn’t a holy rule book, what is it? It nauseates me to click on some liberal church’s website, where inevitably it says “We take the Bible seriously but not literally.”
I’d have to ask what you mean by the Bible being a “rule book” to be taken “literally.”
The Bible LITERALLY has God commanding people “Don’t cut the hair on the side of your head; kill ‘men who lay with men,’ and disrespectful children; if a woman is raped, her attacker must marry her; don’t eat shrimp/it’s okay to eat shrimp; don’t have sex with your wife when she’s menstruating; set aside a portion of your fields for the poor and foreigners to take for free; every 50 years, land returns to the original owners; give to everyone who asks of you; etc”
Those are literal rules found in the Bible, along with 1000 others. Do you obey each one of them? If so, then I’m asking you for $1,000. Give it to me. It’s a rule in your rule book. Obey it!
Do you need my address or do you want to visit me personally with the cash?
What do you MEAN by it’s a rule book to be taken literally? Of course it isn’t. No one takes the Bible’s various rules literally. We INTERPRET them and take the TRUTHS taught in the Bible and try to apply them seriously in our lives.
I would suggest that you absolutely do not take each rule in the Bible literally. Am I wrong? If so, then I’ll expect my $1000 this week, please.
Thanks.
Dan, your clever responses to obvious biblical truths by citing instances of hygiene and social practice does not add any weight to your argument. If you believe in a Creator, you can see by simple science that the male and female were made for union and that other sexual practices produce no offspring and a good bit of unhealthy fluid exchange. There is a reason that sex is for one man and one woman in the state of matrimony. If the state sees fit to alter that definition, it will not recreate God’s plan and it certainly does not improve upon it. If you have sympathies for those who choose to live an unrepentant life, be aware that they are free to be ordained or married in another church but not the United Methodist Church. There are many such churches in this world. I believe that the totalitarian worldview has seeped into your theology. We are called to love the homosexual, but not to encourage him/her in their sin. On the contrary, we are to love them and help them to choose a righteous way of life, even if that requires celibacy. That can glorify God, but homosexuality cannot, neither can polygamy which was not blessed in the Old or New Testament.
Pudentiana…
If you believe in a Creator, you can see by simple science that the male and female were made for union and that other sexual practices produce no offspring and a good bit of unhealthy fluid exchange.
I absolutely believe in a Creator God.
I do NOT see (not even by simple science) that men can only marry women and vice versa. I disagree with your opinion and your understanding of “science.”
“Science” holds no moral view on the appropriate-ness (or not) of homosexuals marrying. Yes, two gay guys can not produce a child, but producing children is not the end all/be all of marriage. In an overpopulated world filled with many homeless children, I am thankful for the many gay and straight individuals and couples who gladly and lovingly adopt children. Thank God for those who adopt.
I don’t find this argument biblically or morally compelling. But you’re welcome to hold it for yourself, if you want. Just don’t demand that I must agree with you? Will you allow me the religious liberty to disagree with your considered opinion?
Thanks.
As to my citing the various rules in the Bible, I did so for a reason: To demonstrate that none of us DO take the Bible as a holy rule book where all we must do is simply obey each rule written on its pages. I assume you agree with that much, yes?
Re: Polygamy… I’d be careful about making sweeping statements. Did you realize that polygamy not only happened in the Biblical cultures, but that it is never ONE TIME condemned in the Bible as wrong? Indeed, God told David that God GAVE DAVID HIS MANY WIVES. Do you think that God gave David wives and sinned? Or do you think that this “proves” that polygamy is part of God’s plan and a rule to be observed?
Or rather, would you agree that just because a rule or behavior appears in the Bible does not mean it is a rule for us to follow?
If it isn’t a holy rule book, what is it? It nauseates me to click on some liberal church’s website, where inevitably it says “We take the Bible seriously but not literally.” In practice, they don’t even take the Bible seriously. What they ought to say is, “We stake out our position based on whatever the secular culture is doing, then we sprinkle a few Bible verses around to make it sound like God approves.”
I have to wonder about people who don’t regard the Bible as a guide to life: How do they know they’re doing it right?
The Bible is a holy rule book – otherwise as Bart Gingerich told Dan eveybody would just do what they think God is telling them to do. It would be like playing a football game in which every player had a different interpretation of the rules of the game and was allowed to play as they saw fit. I have to admit that I think it would be hilarious to watch a football game like I described (there would be fights all over the place kinda of like our schoolyard football games back in the day). In the same way it is funny to watch “Christians” interpret the Bible (aka Holy Rule Book) whichever way they feel God is calling them to interpret it. Dan can do what he wants but I will treat the Bible as the rule book.
This “Reverend” Monica Corsaro is listed in the Reconciling Ministries website as being a “chaplain for Planned Parenthood.”
Call me silly, but exactly what use does an abortion mill have for a “chaplain”?
Want to bet that her bishop not only tolerates her activity but openly encourages it?
Planned Parenthood “chaplains” are the most nauseating of all false teachers. They pretend that Jesus is in favor of crushing and dismembering innocent but unwanted human beings. Maybe the “chaplain” should counsel some of the victims of statutory rape and sex trafficking that PP serially ignores.
I approve of much of what Planned Parenthood does. I believe with many others that abortion should be safe, legal and RARE—which is essentially what our current social principles say as well.
You can learn a great deal about Monica Corsaro by simply Googling her. She is an activist within the UMC regarding many other things that are NOT consistent with our social principles.
I hope you don’t approve of how they systematically hide statutory rape and sex trafficking victims. They have been caught many, many times — http://tinyurl.com/6krdj4p . Go visit their teen website and see how they encourage experimentation and ignoring what your parents and religion say.
It is a scientific fact that the unborn are human beings. Abortion kills those unwanted human beings. I don’t see why anyone would want that to be legal, except in the very rare (less than 1%) of cases where the life of the mother is at stake (e.g., ectopic pregnancies).
And note that the Democrats are no longer pro-choice, they are pro-abortion. You can’t claim to be in favor of “choice” when your platform and Obamacare require that the government force people to pay for abortions.
Not traveling down that abortion/Planned Parenthood road here. It is off topic.
eMatters is right, the conservatives in these denominations should be more assertive, BUT the big problem is that the seminaries and the bureaucracies are firmly in the hands of libs, including (in the case of the UMeths) district superintendents and bishops who are either gay themselves or very pro-gay. (This happens in other denominations too, including the RC.) Once the network is in place, there’s little chance of a pastor being disciplined over lifestyle issues. If you think it’s easy to reform a rotten system, ask Martin Luther – and remember, he didn’t reform the church but had to break away and start a new one.
Btw, note to Hollyboardman: the Western Jurisidiction of the UMeths is notoriously liberal – as in “in your face.” Would it shock you to know that it’s also losing members at a faster rate than other jurisdictions?
Yep. By all accounts my former pastor (I left the UMC — he’s still there) was an ideal candidate for Bishop but couldn’t even get approved in the Texas conference because he believed what the Bible AND the Methodist Book of Discipline say. Think about that: Adhering to the word of God and the rules of your denomination make you unqualified for leadership.
Even the wolves who deny what the Bible says agree with what the BoD says — which is why they are trying to change it. (They’d try to re-write the Bible if they could.)
On Sunday, August 26 the Morning Show on CBS aired a segment entitled “Fighting at the Ballot Box for the Right to Marry”. In the middle of this report on the efforts to pass a marriage equality law in Washington State, I was shocked to see a United Methodist clergywoman identified as the officiant in a “commitment ceremony” of a lesbian couple. Both The Rev. Monica Corsaro and the lesbian couple were interviewed. Since then I have repeatedly posted links to this CBS report on Twitter, on blogposts, and I have emailed it to clergy I know in the Confessing Movement. NO ONE ELSE SEEMS TO BE FOLLOWING UP ON THIS flagrant violation of our Book of Discipline.
It seems to me that if Rev. Corsaro was bold enough to announce this violation on a nationally televised CBS News program, she would be delighted to find additional publicity of her position by having charges filed.
Won’t SOMEONE test the Western Jurisdiction’s Declaration?
Here is a link to the CBS report.
http://cbsn.ws/WquhGr
Good point, Holly. That is part of the problem: No church discipline. These issues appear at first glance to be the fault of the theological liberals (read: wolves in sheep’s clothing) but if the Bible-believers had spines they would have purged the wolves a long time ago. But they were too “nice,” by which I mean they were nice to themselves and avoided tough conversations. Their selfishness has done great harm to the church.
I’d like to suggest that folks who believe the Western Jurisdiction Declaration should be tested should take ACTION by
1) Watching the CBS segment I posted.
2) Pray about it, and follow God’s direction.
3) Sharing the link I posted with people who might make a difference–especially people in the Western Jurisdiction who are not happy with the Jurisdiction’s Declaration.
4) Making this apparent violation KNOWN.
Had to laugh at Overman’s lament: “You have to be someone other than you.” No kidding! The Christian tradition calls that “conversion” and it’s considered a good thing!
People forget that “to thine own self be true” is a line from Hamlet, not the Bible. Our Oprahfied culture has this weird idea that there is some sacred and pure “real you” that can’t be denied anything it wants. “I Gotta Be Me,” “I Did It My Way,” etc etc. Good songs, but really dumb idea.
In one of Bill Cosby’s stand-up routines, he talks about being at a party where some guy was trying to turn him on to cocaine. He asks the guy, “What does cocaine do to you?” The guy says, “It intensifies your personality.” Cosby replies, “But what if you’re an a——?” Crude, I know, but makes a good point: being the “real you” isn’t necessarily a good thing, and “be true to yourself” is lousy theology.
“He will be right at home in the UCC, that very “inclusive” church that, amazingly, continues to LOSE members.”
Yep. Must be the ejector seats. Or the fact that if all you do is parrot the world then why would people need to join your organization? They can save time and money by just staying home and watch GLEE.
The “called to ministry” phrase is another biblical error. It isn’t there. The criteria for ministry are clear (but also ignored by many “churches”).
I do give credit to Overman for being somewhat honest. He was given very bad advice by those who encouraged him to pursue being a Methodist pastor. Contrast him with Beth Stroud, who deliberately lied at her ordination vows to infiltrate the Methodist church, get people to like her, then dramatically “come out” to her congregation. Why are people surprised by Romans 1 poster children who are so willing to lie to advance their cause?
The pro-LGBTQX “pastors” in the Methodist church need to admit that they lied at their ordination vows or changed their minds later. Either way, the honest thing to do is leave for “churches” like the UCC or “Disciples of Christ.”
Just for the record, the UMC lost with anti-lgbt policies, lost 72,000 members. So be careful when deciding what is causing the decline of mainline protestant denominations because we are in as much trouble as all the rest.
So the UMC has lost people because it has been too conservative? Indeed. You might check the rates of growth and decline by area.
Having said that, false religions can grow (Joel Osteen, Mormons, etc.) and sound ones can shrink as people love the world more than God, so I agree that you can’t just look at church growth. But the irony of “inclusive” churches shrinking shouldn’t be ignored. The real church is inclusive: It includes everyone who authentically repents and trust in Jesus.
Michael Overman is, I assume, trying to tug on our heartstrings when he says that the UMeths were not his kind of church, a church where he would “never be asked to leave a part of myself at the door.” Did this guy, who says he feels a call to the ministry, never read the New Testament? ALL Christians are called to “leave part of themselves” when they begin the Christian life, and this isn’t just leaving it at the church door but in our private lives as well. Paul’s letters talk about “putting on Christ” and leaving our former selves behind. We don’t cease to be individuals, of course, and we never get completely free from sin. But this idea that God accepts us “unconditionally” and “as is” is just plain heresy. Flip through the NT and see how often the word “repent” appears – not a minor thing, but an essential thing. The whole point of being a Christian is that we aspire to something higher and recognize the necessity to leave part of ourselves behind – “put off your old self” (Eph 4:22), become a “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17).
Overman says he felt unfairly treated, that he wants to find a church where he is accepted “as is” – well, Mr. Overman, a church like that may make you feel good about yourself, but it sure isn’t a church that is being faithful to its mission. The church shouldn’t be encouraging ANY of us to remain “as is” but to become better than we are. It should welcome sinners, yes, but if they won’t even acknowledge that they are sinners, well, they belong somewhere else beside the church. And as far as his being a minister, there is no “right” to be a minister, and there are plenty of people who claim to be “called” but obviously are unfit to serve.
He will be right at home in the UCC, that very “inclusive” church that, amazingly, continues to LOSE members.
Eric, I heartily agree.
The biblical standards for ecclesiastical leadership seem quite clear on this point.
And you might have a point IF the bible were a rule book and all we had to do was follow each rule offered up at some point in the Bible.
But if we do that, we will kill “men who lay with men,” we will kill disrespectful children, we will kill adulterers, we will force rape victims to marry their assailant, we will not cut the hair on the side of our heads, we will “give to all who ask of us,” we will NOT shed innocent blood, etc, etc, etc.
The point is, the Bible is not a holy rule book. If we take the Bible and try to live by each rule we find on its pages, we will be guilty of the worst sort of pharisaical idolatry and a salvation by works heresy.
Fortunately, no one (including the Bible itself) has ever rationally suggested that we ought to treat the bible as a holy rule book. That would just be goofy and a child-ish approach to Biblical exegesis.
It’s time to put aside childish ways and grow up in our approach to following God. It’s time to start eating the meat of the gospel and give up immature and shallow rule-following approach to Bible study. It didn’t work for the Pharisees and it’s not going to work for us.
clergy are not to live in open, unrepentant sin nor are they to be unequally yoked to non-Christians.
Of course, this begs the question, is disagreeing with you about loving, respecting, cherishing faithfully another in marriage is a sin? I don’t know how much I can emphasize this: WE DON’T BELIEVE YOUR HUNCH ABOUT MARRIAGE IS RIGHT. We honestly believe marriage to be a good thing. Crazy, I know, but that is what we believe.
So, it appears you’re saying, NOT that we ought not live in open, unrepentant sin (we all agree on that point), but rather, we all must agree with you if we want to be Christian.
That, of course, is a bit too arrogant and presumptuous for our tastes.
Religious liberty, my friends! Don’t deny it to others if you don’t want to see it denied to you.
Mr. Trabue, it seems your point is that you want to do what you please.
Then you miss my point, Brother Bart, and I apologize if I was less than clear.
My point would be that religious liberty demands that I have the liberty to seek God’s will for myself and not be dictated by a church or a state as to what THEY think God wants me to do.
Can we agree that true support for religious liberty means not simply that “I am allowed to seek God and the Right for myself, as best I can…” but also, “THEY can also seek God and the Right for themselves, the best they can…”?
Not, “I want to do what I please…” but “I want the religious liberty to seek God for myself without Bart telling me what is and isn’t acceptable.”
Does that make it clearer?
re: “it seems your point is that you want to do what you please…”
In re-reading my comment, I’m not sure where you got that in ANY of what I wrote, which was all about religious liberty and following our own conscience in respect to following God, not “doing what I please…”
Being supportive of religious liberty is not “doing what I please…,” wouldn’t you agree?
On the other hand, as I asked in a previous post, are YOU truly interested in religious liberty for all, not just your particular crowd that agrees with you?
If so, how do you reconcile forcing people by weight of law to go along with your religious beliefs, regardless of whether they agree with your hunches and opinions?