The Episcopal Church maintains a beautifully designed website which, as one might expect from the liberal denomination, devotes a whole section to “LGBT in the Church”. This page reads like a Democratic Party presidential candidate’s website; it is complete with links to affiliated LGBT political activist groups, lay and clergy LGBT lobbying organizations within the denomination, and a detailed history of the church’s support for “radical inclusion” of LGBT people since 1976. The LGBT page is, in fact, considerably longer than the page “Women in the Church”, while the page “Men in the Church” , with only four links and a short video, reads like an afterthought.
Given the amount of attention and space devoted to the particular issue of all non-heterosexual people in the shrinking mainline denomination, what comes as something of a surprise is the website’s total silence on the subject of the persecuted church. Considering that pages and pages are devoted to the evidently crucial topics of transgender rights and same-sex wedding blessings, the website’s silence on the global reality of Christians facing persecution for their faith is deafening.
The LGBT section appears under the front-and-center headline “Who We Are”, while the subject of Christians facing persecution is absent from that headline as well as from the “Ministries” and “What We Do” headlines. Commendably, there is a “Pray for Sudan” section under “What We Do”, and numerous other charitable endeavors listed throughout the website under easily-accessible sub-sections and pages. Yet, evidently, the issue of Christians being persecuted for their faith is not one of The Episcopal Church’s priorities, although the independent and non-partisan Pew Research Center found in January that Christians are the world’s most persecuted faith group.
What a denomination chooses to put on its official website says a lot about what its priorities are and what its vision is. Despite that the liberal mainline denomination is overwhelmingly white, it evidently sees outreach to Navajo Native Americans in the name of the “Divine Creator” and “Earth Mother” as a greater priority than giving voice to the ongoing suffering and martyrdoms of thousands of Christians in the Middle East and Africa. This is a rather strange set of priorities for the shrinking, cash-strapped denomination.
It comes as no surprise that The Episcopal Church puts considerable effort into reaching out to one of its core constituencies (LGBT people). However, it is shocking that the faces and stories of Christians suffering for their faith in Christ should be so glaringly absent from a Christian denomination’s website. The Episcopal Church’s website is thus an accurate microcosm for the shrinking denomination’s warped priorities: it reads more like a series of manifestos from one’s high school Social Justice Club or Young Democrats than the encyclicals and declarations of a Church of Christ.
Comment by Jamie Delarosa on August 27, 2014 at 9:09 am
One of the ironies of the Episcs – and there are so many – is that in spite of constant efforts to be “inclusive” of ethnic minorities, all the liberal denominations are 92 percent white, or more. You’ll find more non-whites in the Assembly of God or Southern Baptist churches. So the “inclusivist” gospel of the liberal churches isn’t about actually drawing different ethnicities in, it’s about feeling good about themselves.
Comment by echarles1 on August 28, 2014 at 2:13 pm
The Episcopal church is wacky. Their presiding bishop is a mess. And yet, give the Devil his due. There is a link on the front page “Pray for Iraq” From there you can get the presiding bishop’s statement re: Christians and others persecuted in the Middle East. She even quotes a prayer that calls God “Father.” So there’s that.
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/notice/episcopal-church-presiding-bishop-calls-prayer-iraq
Comment by Charles B. Jordan Jr. on August 28, 2014 at 4:01 pm
Maybe you should return to the website today. Currently, there is no LGBT icon unless you use the pulldown menus. However, there are icons for 1) the Sudan – and the horrors of war, human displacement and limited access to clean drinking water – and 2) prayers for Iraq and the Partnership Office for Arab Christians. No need to go to the pulldown menus. As to conservative denominations, the SBC website doesn’t mention Christian persecution. The PCA website only mentions Gaza. And the ACNA and PEAR sites don’t mention persecution either.
Comment by Karmasue on August 28, 2014 at 5:31 pm
Why do you hate on the Episcopal Church so much? Just because they allow the LGBT to worship there? Would it be better if there was no place at all for those people to worship God?
Comment by fredx2 on August 28, 2014 at 6:09 pm
No, because a church that seems to be obsessed with LGBT matters seems to have ended up being a political organization, nothing more.
And just for the record, pretty much every church “allows gays to worship there”. There are billlions of places for gays to go to church.
Comment by Karmasue on August 28, 2014 at 6:42 pm
How is a church which embraces LGBT members as well as others “being a political organization”?
You say that “There are billlions of places for gays to go to church.” But they are not treated the same as straight members.
Comment by Asemodevs on August 28, 2014 at 8:01 pm
They can go anywhere they like. Ever seen armed guards standing in the church porch, asking “Are you gay?” Going in and flaunting their perverse lifestyle and saying “You must accept me as a Christian!” – now, that’s a problem. We don’t “embrace” thieves and rapists and pedophiles, no Christian should embrace sodomy either. That’s sick.
Btw, did you get the memo? The pro-gay churches are LOSING.
Comment by Karmasue on August 29, 2014 at 9:09 am
Let him who is without sin…
Comment by M Didaskalos on August 29, 2014 at 1:52 pm
And, almost immediately after the eponymous Founder of Christianity said that to the crowd, He then told the woman caught in the act of adultery, “Go and sin no more.”
Imagine that. Jesus called sexual sin, sin. And He admonished the sinner to stop sinning. That would get Him roundly denounced as “unloving” in the likes of the Episcopal Church (and the ELCA and the UCC) today, wouldn’t it?
And what would make Him even more of a pariah in the EC/ELCA/UCC, Jesus condemned ALL sexual sin when He said in Mark 7:21-23: “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
The Greek word rendered as “sexual immorality” is “porneia,” which is translated [Thayer’s/Strong’s Old & New Testament Greek Concordance entry #4202 ] “illicit sexual intercourse: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals, etc.”
Worse yet, in what would likely get Jesus stoned in an Episcopal/ELCA/UCC church today as a “hater,” Jesus said that anyone who would receive Him as Savior and Lord needs to repent of sin. That would be all sin, including one’s favorite sins. At the beginning of His ministry, Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Today’s world-obeisant, apostate, uncomfortable-with-the-real-Jesus churches say, “Don’t sweat that sin thing. There’s no need to repent of anything. God approves of you just the way you are, and everyone’s going to heaven.”
Jesus’ phrase “wolves in sheep’s clothing” pretty well describes these ersatz “churches.” [ http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-15.htm ]
Comment by Karmasue on August 29, 2014 at 4:22 pm
Then you have the authority and the right to cast stones.
Comment by M Didaskalos on August 29, 2014 at 5:16 pm
Uh, no. The only human being who would have that right is the God-man Jesus, the sinless Son of God. My earlier post spoke to Jesus’ commands for all sinners — you and me included — to repent of their sins, ask God’s forgiveness, and receive Jesus as Savior and Lord: “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.”
Those who refuse to repent are excluded from the kingdom of God, now and for eternity: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” And we don’t get to subjectively pick what’s sin and what’s not. The Bible (which Jesus described, and which describes itself, as the Word of God) judges us; we don’t sit in judgment on the Bible or reclassify Bible-proscribed sins as perfectly acceptable behavior (as the UCC, EC, and ELCA have done).
Comment by Karmasue on August 29, 2014 at 5:23 pm
“Those who refuse to repent are excluded from the kingdom of God, now and for eternity”
So, as sinners, we are both excluded from the kingdom?
Or are you no longer sinning so don’t need to repent any more?
Comment by M Didaskalos on August 29, 2014 at 6:50 pm
No, there’s an all-important difference between repentant and unrepentant sinners. Those who have acknowledged they’re sinners, repented of their sins, and trusted (received) Jesus as their Savior (indeed, the only Savior from sin) are children of God.
Even after they’ve become God’s children through repentance and faith in Jesus, God’s redeemed children sin every day, but their lives are characterized by ongoing repentance. They’re not trying to justify or excuse their sins. Christians who sin aren’t damned, but their relationship/fellowship with God is impaired. They ask forgiveness for their sins, and they ask for the indwelling Holy Spirit’s help in turning away from sin and resisting it when the temptations come.
People, even those who say they’re Christians, who continue to live in willful, hard-hearted, unrepentant sin that’s clearly proscribed by the Bible may be giving evidence that they’re not really redeemed Christians. The Apostle Paul wrote, “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
Comment by Karmasue on August 29, 2014 at 7:53 pm
Why do you suppose God allowed gays to be born into a world where He has predetermined their damnation? Do you think they were all meant to be celibate? Or should they marry and hide their true nature from an unsuspecting mate like so many gay Christians have felt the need to do?
Comment by M Didaskalos on August 29, 2014 at 9:42 pm
Jesus’ and the Bible’s admonitions about sexual sin and unrepentant sinners include all sins outside of the bonds of man-woman marriage: fornication (unmarried heterosexual sex), adultery, and homosexuality. Nobody gets a pass, nor for that matter does anybody get a pass for other sins, either: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-12&version=ESV The biggest sin: refusal to accept that I’m a sinner in need of a Savior and that Jesus is who He said He is: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14%3A6&version=ESV
Getting beyond just that one subject (sexuality), the more appropriate question is why does God allow sinners of EVERY kind to be born into a world where they’re expected to repent of and turn away from their sins, no matter how besetting and how often they succumb to those sins? A big part of that answer is that when sinners truly repent and believe, the Holy Spirit who takes up residence in them “recreates” them: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” That regenerating work doesn’t make them impervious to sin, but the Holy Spirit continues to work in them to bring their thoughts, emotions, words and actions in line with God’s Word.
Regarding your more specific question, a man — a pastor — who’s struggled with same-sex attraction his entire adult life offers more convincing, first-hand testimony than I would be able to do. Two of his articles follow:
http://pastorsstudy.org/news/what-does-the-bible-teach-about-homosexuality.html — What Does the Bible Teach About Homosexuality?
http://pastorsstudy.org/news/my-struggle-with-same-sex-attraction.html — My Struggle With Same-Sex Attraction
Comment by mountainaires on August 31, 2014 at 4:55 pm
Why do you ask questions that are designed to be sly, and clever, thinking yourself to be the center of the universe? Don’t you even know that Jesus answers ALL questions in the Bible? My answer to your sly question is a straightforward one: Read the Bible–both Old and New Testaments. Better yet, attend a Bible study group, so you can discuss Biblical teaching with others. Your question will be answered, if in fact you wanted an answer. But I suspect you don’t, not really.
Comment by Karmasue on September 1, 2014 at 11:11 am
If I wanted a “bible class” interpretation I could get one from any one of the denominations. But getting a perspective is not the same thing. I am not trying to “learn” the bible. I am trying to grasp perspectives of believers, like Dusty who appears sincerely sad about what he believes is the loss of some of God’s children (gay Christians) – “lost” as opposed to “disgusting” like most of you think. It’s that sincerity and civility that set him apart.
The bible quotes I can get from the bible. They are taught, memorized, or looked up.
It is rare to get answers from the heart. But they are the only ones that matter in the end because that is what you truly believe.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 4:00 pm
You also seem to be a stereotyper “Most of you think” because most of the Christians I know never make judgements EVER of other people.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Many Christians like myself believe that being homosexual is a civil right that is expressly forbidden by The Bible (that is just fact). The Bible is not to be read literally as there are plenty of other problems.
But just because a person chooses that, some people choose to do other things–and God is the only one who can judge.So we believe that anyone at all should be a Christian and be included without judgement including LGBT etc., divorced people, criminals, whomever.
Comment by Ryan Hunter on September 1, 2014 at 12:14 pm
Beautifully written, “M. Didaskalos”:
<>
In Christ,
-Ryan Hunter
Comment by Ryan Hunter on September 1, 2014 at 12:12 pm
Hi “M Didaskalos”:
One small correction. The Bible actually describes Jesus Himself as the Word of God (See John 1:1). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…”.
Respectfully,
-Ryan Hunter
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 3:48 pm
right. that is true. all that comes from within. there are those around us who believe that only external forces are at play causing all sorts of horrible things in their lives. if only they could change all other human beings so that THEY THEMSELVES could be without evil. It is exactly the opposite.
Comment by M Didaskalos on August 29, 2014 at 7:23 am
It may be a political organization; it is certainly and ineluctably an apostate, world-appeasing church that is feeding its members stones instead of the Biblical bread they so desperately need. When a denomination encourages unrepentant sinners to continue living in their sin [ https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-11&version=NIV ], it has become an agent of damnation rather than salvation.
S. M. Hutchens writes: “What assertive homosexuality wants of Christianity is something it can never have. The movement for rights it claims to have been denied by traditionalist societies is not the deepest part of its quest, which is for approval by those who regard it as sinful — which is at root approval by God. It cannot place high value on the approbation of “welcoming” churches, for it understands perfectly well that liberal religion, with its vaunted inclusivism, has no more moral authority to gratify it in this regard than a prostitute has to absolve her patrons. So the public homosexual is in the impossible situation of seeking approval in places where he can only find forgiveness, among those who are obliged to tell him, “It is written. . . .”
“This insistence fixes him in frustration and anger against those who hold to biblical religion, and may be relied upon to assure development of justifications for the punishment of the illiberal religions wherever homosexualism wins the power to do it. Attempts to incarnate itself in society can only be destructive to its religious enemies. It must be firmly opposed by those who do not wish it to do as it will in their culture, their governments, their schools, and their homes.”
— S. M. Hutchens (writing in the November-December 2011 issue of Touchstone Magazine: A Journal of Mere Christianity — http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/issue.php?id=165
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=26-04-003-e — “JUST CHRISTIANS: ON HOMOSEXUALITY & CHRISTIAN IDENTITY”
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 3:45 pm
get over it. If you want to be treated the same as someone else, you might become surprised about all the shit they put up with that you never realized before. LOL Like for instance, What about paying gay men 20% less so they can be treated just like women in the USA!!!
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 3:43 pm
yes. I got called a bigot the other day by a gay person who ASSUMED that just because I pointed out that all gays can be married in the Episcopal Churchs TODAY, that I was “against” gay marriage(obviously because I am white and hetero). They are just insane about marriaging and “their legal rights” which basically at this point means their ability to get some sort of discount. Well, I personally paid the federal marriage tax for years and I don’t feel superior because of it. They just can’t stand it when all that they worked for comes TRUE — which leaves them with nothing to be angry about.
Comment by Asemodevs on August 28, 2014 at 7:59 pm
Typical of the left – drag the word “hate” in, regardless. Learn to think, not attack.
Disapproval is not the same as hate – got it?
Comment by Karmasue on August 29, 2014 at 9:16 am
Not an attack, just an observation. Love doesn’t look like that.
Comment by Jeremy Long on August 29, 2014 at 11:43 am
It’s obvious you don’t have children, or you would grasp the distinction between hate and disapproval.
Comment by Karmasue on August 29, 2014 at 12:14 pm
Your recognition of the “obvious” is flawed. As is your selfish definition of persecution since you have no issue with persecuting gay Christians.
Comment by Ryan Hunter on September 1, 2014 at 12:19 pm
Hi Karmasue,
I’m the author of the original post. I would just like to point out that the point of the above post was not to enter into or inspire a long, drawn-out discussion about homosexuality and Christian moral ethics, but rather, to contrast The Episcopal Church’s extensive attention to this one core constituency group with its far less attention to the subject of the persecuted Church.
Most of us who are traditional or conservative Christians don’t “hate” LGBT people. I certainly don’t hate anyone, since literally everyone is made in God’s image. But I hope you will give some consideration to the view that loving someone inherently because of their humanity does not mean one automatically need approve of their every action or set of values.
-Ryan Hunter
Comment by Karmasue on September 1, 2014 at 12:57 pm
The article is about just that – Christians who are being persecuted.
These are gay Christians who are being persecuted by their own people because they are both gay and Christian.
The Episcopals seem to understand that and have offered them a haven.
Isn’t that what the article was talking about? A haven for Christians who are being persecuted because they want to practice their faith?
Comment by Ryan Hunter on September 2, 2014 at 11:29 am
I’m not aware of any Christian churches which “persecute” any LGBT people. Not affirming a certain lifestyle is fundamentally different from persecution (the deliberate attacking of a certain group or people). If you’ve ever spent time in a Catholic or Orthodox church, you’d never hear a priest or bishop attacking LGBT people. To the contrary, we’re exhorted to welcome *all* people to worship with us. But, again, if your definition of persecution includes “not validating the lifestyle choices of someone”, then, yes, I suppose we do persecute people, since our goal is the ongoing reformation and transformation of every human being away from any sins and toward the life in Christ.
Comment by Karmasue on September 3, 2014 at 12:28 pm
“If you’ve ever spent time in a Catholic or Orthodox church, you’d never hear a priest or bishop attacking LGBT people.”
But that’s not true. And gays commit suicide all too often because they are attacked – both emotionally and (often) physically.
And I’ve heard worse than the Rev. Fred Phelps’ and his band of haters who printed signs saying “God hates fags” from church leaders.
“During his sermon at the Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden,
Pastor Charles Worley said he figured out a way to ‘get rid of all the
lesbians and queers.’ The N.C.Baptist leader said they should be put inside electrified fences 100 miles long, drop a little food, and soon they would all die out.
Kansas Pastor Curtis Knapp said the government should kill them all.
Maryland Pastor Dennis Leatherman says “my ‘flesh’ likes the idea of killing gays”.
Pastor Sean Harris says “…if they see their son “dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a
good punch.”
Pastor Jeff Sangl of the Apostolic Truth Tabernacle cheers – in church – while a child sings “ain’t no homo gonna make it to heaven”.
That isn’t persecution? Then what is it?
Comment by Ryan Hunter on September 3, 2014 at 2:02 pm
Karmasue, those are all deplorable, hateful comments issued by evangelical preachers — NOT Orthodox or Catholic priests or bishops. With all due respect to those ministers, my Church doesn’t even consider them to be actual priests or bishops, since they have no apostolic succession. Please know that no Orthodox or Catholic priest or bishop could ever say such hateful things and keep his position.
-Ryan Hunter
Comment by Karmasue on September 3, 2014 at 2:49 pm
Then why aren’t those Orthodox bishops speaking out against that persecution of gays? You don’t have to love them to speak out against persecution.
And Catholic priests? Isn’t that the faith that covered up those priests who perverted that lifestyle themselves. The most horrendous scandal in the Catholic church has been the pedophile cases of those closeted priests who couldn’t stay celibate. Tell me that’s not true.
Just listen to the responses about gays right here on your pages from those who don’t just treat gays as “personas non grata”.
It’s an un-Christlike message and it’s being sent to schools and playgrounds.
CDC – “Negative attitudes toward gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender
people put LGBT youth at increased risk for experiences with violence,
compared with other students. Violence can include behaviors such as
bullying, teasing, harassment, physical assault, and suicide-related
behaviors.”
You should read the stats yourself. Read about the incidence of suicide among LGBT youth.
“LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts.”
I don’t think that institutionalized homophobia was what Christ had in mind. But that is what is happening, “in some cases, including the use of rights and protections for LGBT
people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to
halt legalizing same-sex marriages.”
Yet the self-same people who decry persecution of their own group for any reason, are the ones who are persecuting these human beings.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 4:03 pm
The article is about the silence on behalf of the world’s Christians who have historically been persecuted.It is NOT about gay Christians. It is about why the church is being silent on this important issue and over focusing on issues that have been settled for many of us which is inclusion.
Comment by Karmasue on February 27, 2015 at 9:21 pm
It is absolutely about the gays (“LGBT” in almost every paragraph) and Native Americans getting more airtime, when christian lives are clearly more valuable than those godless pagans. Bigotry at its finest.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 10:16 pm
No, you are wrong again. This article is about the LACK of a defense of the ethnic cleansing by our American Church that is an URGENT situation currently. The POINT is that other issues have an immense repetitive amount of attention and they are not people being murdered– so this issue of Christian persecution is URGENT and being largely ignored.
Please note that “Christian” is a term that is always capitalized out of respect for our religion.
No one has made comparisons of worthiness but YOU. I fail to see what is so offensive to you. You unfortunately do not have the ability to read an article and understand/comprehend what you have read. You are drawing conclusions that are not correct. You are “off in left field” in the discussion because of your lack of reading comprehension.
I see that you are anonymous and do not show your picture. That has the effect of devaluing your comments FYI.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 3:38 pm
Many of us who are “white” (now a minority status where I live) Protestant, straight, and American are just fed up with being told that we have no culture, that we are “white-privileged”, and then seeing this persecution of Christians and the SILENCE about it from the very people who have been preaching to us about all sorts of injustices. We are expected to listen to the constant drone of people who claim all sorts of things because of their “race” while knowing that race is not even anything but one’s skin color. And then, when it really matters in the world–when Christians are being targeted, a SILENCE in our defense. We consider all Christians to be of value!
Comment by Karmasue on February 27, 2015 at 7:45 pm
Just listen to yourself:
“We are expected to listen to the constant drone of people who claim all
sorts of things because of their ‘race’ while knowing that race is not
even anything but one’s skin color.”
And after that perfect example of bigotry, you top it with this:
“And then when it really matters in the world…”
When gays are being targeted?
When Muslims are being targeted?
African Americans?
De-funding low income welfare recipients?
Defunding low-income women’s Health Clinics?
Defunding children’s school lunch programs?
Cutting war vet’s VA budget?
Sending thousands of child immigrants back into abuse and poverty?
No?
…”when Christians are being targeted…”
Oh, of course.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 10:06 pm
If people don’t stand up for their own, then they cannot expect others to stand up for them. You will call me a bigot no matter what I say because YOU are prejudiced against ME. I am FOR the cause I speak for–not AGAINST everything you mention. Yes we all have our priorities, To be fair, Ryan Hunter wrote the piece here so I am “on subject” in my commenting but YOU are NOT. The subject is Christians under attack. And YOU seem to be one of the attackers.
Comment by Karmasue on March 1, 2015 at 6:45 pm
You say “If people don’t stand up for their own, then they cannot expect others to stand up for them.”
And I seem to be your attacker because I challenged the outrage by the Orthodox Christians -at Liberal Christians (Episcopalians) – for a lack of support for the persecution of Evangelical Christians?
How ironic. You are fighting each other, about each other, over each other. You are attacking your own, certainly not protecting them.
There are many disparaging articles here about the Episcopalians [Christians] and United Methodists [Christians].
Episcopalians are referred to as “Piskies” – with a capital P – by the loyal christian commenters here and the United Methodists are called even more colorful things.
Bigotry has many faces.
Comment by Njp Thompson on February 27, 2015 at 10:18 pm
Race is not a scientific concept. You and I have the same humanity. Our genetics are the same no matter what our skin color. Geographic Origin can have certain differences but these are minimal as well.
Comment by Karmasue on March 1, 2015 at 5:08 pm
Get your biology books out and dust them off. I’m not going to go into the biological depth of race when you have something like wiki at your fingertips. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28biology%29
And bigotry is an intolerance that runs much deeper than racism.