A Methodist Culture-War Showdown

on May 13, 2016

This piece was originally published, in its entirety, by the Wall Street Journal

As 864 delegates gather this week and next in Portland, Ore., for the United Methodist Church’s quadrennial General Conference, they face a fork in the road: Will United Methodism turn inward and remain a mostly liberal Protestant church? Or will it become increasingly evangelical and global?

United Methodism, with more than seven million American members, is the largest of the big seven mainline Protestant denominations. Nearly all the mainline churches in recent years have officially affirmed same-sex marriage and actively gay clergy, followed by schism and decline. The United Church of Christ, once a flagship mainline denomination, recently predicted losing 80% of its members over the next 30 years.

Methodists have not followed that path. Yet in the 1970s, as the late Catholic intellectual Richard John Neuhaus once recalled, United Methodism was expected to become the first major denomination to adapt to post-1960s sexual mores. Of the great Protestant communions, Methodism was arguably the most democratic and American, and the least tied to tradition.

Continue reading the rest of the story here.

  1. Comment by MarcoPolo on May 13, 2016 at 12:15 pm

    Interesting how Mr. Tooley uses the spatial reference when he said: “Will United Methodism turn INWARD and remain a mostly LIBERAL Protestant church? Or will it become increasingly EVANGELICAL and GLOBAL?”

    My point is that a church can be liberal AND still be global.
    If the more traditional/orthodox members develop in Africa, or anywhere else, that then will likely dictate where the Church will be geographically located.

    Thankfully, America has realized we can no longer persecute groups of people for just being different!

  2. Comment by Mark Brooks on May 13, 2016 at 12:43 pm

    Liberal and global, but not evangelical, and certainly not growing. To assert otherwise is to ignore the facts. Since you aren’t a Christian, I’m not sure why you have an opinion, MarcoPolo. Aren’t you still following, or at least investigating, Buddhism?

    Also, nobody is ever persecuted just for being different, MarcoPolo. If you aren’t going to say something serious, why bother posting?

  3. Comment by MarcoPolo on May 13, 2016 at 1:00 pm

    Yes, my religious preference would be Buddhism as it doesn’t have all the “hang-ups” the Abrahamic religions hang onto. That doesn’t preclude me from having an opinion.

    Do you truly believe what you said about nobody EVER being persecuted for just being different?
    Seriously, THAT logic is a real departure from reality!

    When I have more time, I’ll list the many ways people who were/are different, were persecuted.

  4. Comment by Mark Brooks on May 13, 2016 at 4:11 pm

    If you can provide even one objectively verifiable instance of groups of people being persecuted solely for being different in America, please do so. Solely for being different, not because of something about that difference. I’m holding you to what you said, that’s all. Remember, what you said was:

    “Thankfully, America has realized we can no longer persecute groups of people for just being different!”

    That looks like a fairly silly remark, but I’ve give you a chance to explain and prove it.

    As for having an opinion, the question was why, not whether. You certainly have an opinion. Why you have an opinion, therein is the mystery.

  5. Comment by MarcoPolo on May 13, 2016 at 4:32 pm

    So even if I mentioned the plight of peoples who were persecuted, you might likely say they were self inflicted. (?)
    Let’s start with the:
    •North American Natives
    •Irish
    •Chinese
    •Mormons
    •Mexicans
    •Christians (though not so much in America)
    etc…

    There are Political, Racial. Religious, Ethnic, Nationalistic and Gender groups who ALL, at various times in History bore the wrath of prejudice from those who couldn’t tolerate people being DIFFERENT than themselves!

  6. Comment by Mark Brooks on May 13, 2016 at 4:57 pm

    “North American Natives”? I’m a North American Native. Where were you born? If you were using that to refer to the many nations of people living in the Americas, or their descendants, at or before 1492, then I’ll have to insist that you specify, because I’m familiar with that history and there isn’t a single instance I’m aware of where persecution was due solely to the people of those nations being different. Warfare is warfare, and the cultural differences were quite profound in many cases.

    The Irish? The Irish certainly suffered much persecution under British rule in Ireland. Even there, it wasn’t solely for being Irish. Religious and cultural differences came into play. If you have specific instances of persecution of the Irish in America, please provide them. I’m betting more was going on than somebody “just being different”.

    Chinese? Persecution, based on what histories I’ve reviewed, often came down to resentment over their being willing to work so cheaply, and the perception that they were taking jobs from native-born Americans, particularly in mining and the railroads. There certainly was racism involved, but even that seems to have been inspired by the dislike many people in the Western United States felt for people who would undercut them financially.

    Mormons? MarcoPolo, the LDS was actually at war with the United States at one point in time, fighting to separate out a nation of their own from U.S. territory called “Deseret”. But for the Civil War, they would have faced a full invasion, and they did face a full invasion after. Very wisely, they pushed Young aside and made an accommodation. They also gave up polygyny. You will note that this resulted in a very harmonious situation generally. So again, not a mere difference.

    Mexicans? Here we again have historical, linguistic, and cultural matters.

    “Christians, though not so much in America.” Oh, really? I’m beginning to think I need to ask you to define what you consider persecution a little more clearly.

    After seeing this list, I’m pretty comfortable with continuing to say nobody is persecuted merely for being different.

    Murderers are different from non-murderers, MarcoPolo. Are they persecuted merely for being different? In Germany, Nazis are prohibited by law from participating in politics, displaying their symbols, and publishing their works. They can be jailed just for being Nazis. Are they persecuted merely for being different Marco Polo?

    Or is the real problem that you don’t want to deal with the nature of the differences that cause conflict? I might argue that your repeated postings criticizing Christians for obeying their God is a form of persecution, MarcoPolo. What do you consider persecution?

    Or, as I have suggested, did you just make some silly remark, one that would appear meant to equate Christians controlling their own religion with persecuting people “merely for being different”?

  7. Comment by Jacob Kyker on May 13, 2016 at 5:07 pm

    Well said Mark. You nailed the real issue and how the UMC can survive if God has His way.

  8. Comment by MarcoPolo on May 14, 2016 at 11:54 am

    I’m more confused than ever, after reading your last post. So I guess we have different ideas of just what persecution is. No problem, it’s certainly not going to abate with the multitude of attitudes at play today!

    Best wishes on moving forward in a world that seems to only change when people let go of their hang-ups over other people who are merely different.

    Respectfully,
    MacoPolo

  9. Comment by Mark Brooks on May 14, 2016 at 11:40 pm

    No, as I’ve made clear in my comment, the focus is on your statement:

    “Thankfully, America has realized we can no longer persecute groups of people for just being different!”

    It isn’t about definitions of persecution.

    First and foremost, this is about how a group of Christians run their Church. It really isn’t your business, you are not a Christian. You are attacking people for how they run their own affairs.

    Second, it isn’t about mere difference. It is about vile sexual immorality among those who claim to be ministers of the Gospel. God’s word is clear. Christians are commanded by their God to deal with these issues. Read 1 Corinthians if you like.

    Third, repeating the same shibboleth doesn’t make it any more convincing. Details matter.

    Clearly, you feel some compulsion on the issue of homosexual sin to criticize Christians. At the end of the day it isn’t important to know why, but that “why” question still hangs there, nonetheless.

    I am sure that the Christians in the UMC will do what they need to do to obey God, anyway.

  10. Comment by MarcoPolo on May 16, 2016 at 8:34 am

    And so they shall.
    Namaste’

  11. Comment by MarcoPolo on May 14, 2016 at 1:48 pm

    Would you not agree, that sometimes people are persecuted for JUST being different?

    And somehow, in my earlier list of groups who have suffered severe persecution….the African-American citizen!

  12. Comment by Mark Brooks on May 14, 2016 at 11:21 pm

    Nope, I wouldn’t agree. That’s what I challenged you to prove, and you haven’t.

    The descendants of slaves? That’s the worst example. We can document that original black and white bonded servants were treated pretty much the same in the English colonies. Remember, slavery in America has been studied to death. The system that created African slavery in America was one that grew, not one that existed from the beginning, and its motivations were economic. Simply put, unlike white slaves, black slaves couldn’t simply hide among a free-born population in the same way. That’s the origin of the infamous black codes.

    Of course, once the taint of slavery was there, social and cultural prejudice followed. But again, not merely because of a difference. Rather, because of something quite ordinary (as evil often is), a difference was exploited. But it wasn’t because of the difference.

  13. Comment by John S. on June 1, 2016 at 7:14 am

    Liberal and global is easy, liberal, global and christian is impossible (as liberal is defined these days).

    BTW you are completely wrong on this statement:

    “Thankfully, America has realized we can no longer persecute groups of people for just being different!”
    Its just different groups being persecuted, especially those who do not conform to the groupthink.

  14. Comment by MarcoPolo on June 1, 2016 at 7:41 am

    I can certainly empathize with the concern any group may feel about coming under siege just for being different. That has been my goal since childhood, to understand the oppressed, and attempt to alleviate it somehow. So now, I’m seeing a shift in just which groups (as John S points out) are ‘feeling’ oppressed.

    I say, feeling, because that’s generally the “early warning system” for actually BEING oppressed.
    I don’t deny, that today, the Christian (and other orthodox faiths) are seeing their religion(s) being tested for it’s compatibility with Life in the twenty-first century.

    We all know how Galileo was treated by The Church during his time on this planet. Do we deny the Science of Life? No! Do we abandon the time honored beliefs of our fathers? Possibly!

    Keep the faith for Spiritual strength, but let go of dogma that hinders people from realizing their human potential for the Greater Good.

  15. Comment by John S. on June 2, 2016 at 7:21 am

    Ahh, that fictitious, monolithic church. The first point is the action was done by the Roman Catholic church which is not, despite their claims, the same thing as the christian church. Second a full reading of the Galileo affair presents a far different picture than the standard: Church Stupid, Galileo Good meme we normally see. Third, and I’m almost afraid to ask Science of Life? normally that would be biology but from the context I assume you meant something different.

  16. Comment by MarcoPolo on June 2, 2016 at 8:00 am

    Sorry for any confusion.
    Yes, Biology is the term, I was just attempting to cover ALL of the Scientific aspects that living on this planet provides.

  17. Comment by John S. on June 3, 2016 at 5:44 am

    That’s OK, I hit a lot of different perspectives and I’ve known some who would call metaphysics or psychic activity the “science” of life.

  18. Comment by John S. on June 3, 2016 at 5:46 am

    The Greater Good, how much has been done in its cause.

  19. Comment by Jacob Kyker on May 13, 2016 at 5:12 pm

    Well said Mark Tooley. You nailed the real issue and how the UMC can survive if God has His way.

  20. Comment by Tiger on May 15, 2016 at 1:28 pm

    True Christianity is always at war with the culture, eternal values versus secular values.

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